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2016 Phazer RTX 60mph top speed

Jayson said:
I was under the assumption that Chris' primary machine and billet helix would net me 8 - 10 mph gain. That's simple not the case on my self thus far. I actually lost 1 mph going to his helix over the stock one with the primary overdrive machine already done. We've tried combo after combo, swapped parts, etc. nothing works. My sled will not even go 70. It bearly goes 65. Ant idea's?
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Try putting more weight in the primary on the tip this will bring the rpm down, plus go to a 19 top gear if you have to, 12400 is way to high, you should have been hitting the rev limiter at 12200, Chris's helix gives you a quick back shift and keeps the rpm up in the mid range in the deep stuff, you got to get your rpm down, weight in the primary will do that I believe Chris has custom weights 5.3 gram this is what I did, did you say you have Chris's machined clutch sheave?
 

Jayson said:
Stock helix stock clutching:
96mph @ 12,430 A1
96mph @ 12,420 B1

Schmidt billet helix stock clutch
95mph @ 12,370 A1
95mph @ 12,360 B1

These are on a stand. No load. Not enough snow to test ride tonight. Swapped to another stock secondary spring. No change..
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I had a 2014 xtx bone stock 64 mph, the xtx has the same drivers as the mtx but a 19/41 gear set up, I purchased the comfort clutch kit with the stage two helix and a 17 top gear, installed it putting my secondary in the c1 by mistake and hit the rev limiter at 58-60 mph real quick, after realizing what setting I was in I moved to the recommended setting from Chris of b1 where I had a 144 free ride track, top speed hitting the rev limiter 65 really quick, I started second guessing the top gear was to low but after a good chat with Chris he sent me his custom weights for the primary put them in the tips and moved to stock a1 position in the secondary end result 11500 at 70 at 75 I was close to the rev limiter in the deep stuff around 111oo-11200 right in the power band this is where Chris's helix shined, I wanted the quickness of the clutch kit set up where I run anywhere from 0-60 mph 90% of the time my goal was not top end but 70-75 is fast enough
 
I wasn't trying to sound disrespectful at all. I love all the parts and the service Chris has provided. I do have his weights (both tip and middle, in a second set of flyweight arms. I had them installed originally. That was when I was seeing 66mph @ ~ 12,060 - 12,130rpm when riding this past Friday (1-6-17). That's why we swapped back to stock clutch parts to get a baseline. I've spoken to Chris many times on the phone. He's been over the top helpful. We've even come to the same conclusion a few times. (we thought a weak secondary spring was to blame for the lack of top speed), bought a new spring, no change.

Another issue we keep seeing is that when the helix is in A1 or B1, the belt will sit 1/4" down in the secondary after running the sled. We install the belt, turn it a few times to get it even with the top of the secondary. Fire up the sled, rev it a few times, when it comes back to idle, belt is 1/4" down, like the secondary can't squeeze together tight enough, hence we thought weak soring. We've tried removing shims to change the deflection but it does nothing. So we thought ok secondary spring is weak. Because when we changed the helix to B2, the belt would stay up even with the sheeves, as you guys are well aware, B2 is a lot of wrap, 40 degrees over stock, 85 total if I recall. I think A1 is 45 / B1 is 55. No one runs B2 that I can find. We've measured the belt (34mm) it's within .1mm of new. Belt / sled only have 276 miles on them.

I'm gonna head back over to the shop this afternoon, reinstall Chris' primary spring and weights (I don't know the gram weights of the rivets, I'll ask him next time we talk), and report back. Someone stated that perhaps the engine is revving high enough, but the ecu still hasn't "broken in fully" and is pulling timing, putting me down on power, and that could possibly be my issue. I don't feel that's my issue, but I'm open to opinions. I've only ever ran 93 octane premium (or 91 whatever a stations highest availed was). It starts, idles, revs, runs perfectly fine. Fuel mileage is 14 - 15 (I'm a flipper to the gripper rider, meaning I'm pretty much wide open throttle everywhere).

Thank you guys for your help thus far. If we can't come up with anything else, I'll install a taller top gear (19 or 20 tooth) to get some speed, but I still feel something is wrong, because I'm down mph vs other members here with the same sled / gearing as me. We verified 18/41 tooth gears in the chain case, 9 tooth drivers. Called dealer yesterday with my vin, no updates / TSB's / recalls.

My ecu is 8GN-10. Which, from google searching, has no known issues.
 
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You need more weight in the primary, add 2 grams to each weight and test again. Anything over 11,500 and you are loosing hp, by 12,000 your down 3-4hp and the rev limiter kicks in around 12,300. Going to a 19 tooth is going to work against you, stock 18 tooth is good for 80+ GPS speed (87-88 on the speedo)

If I can do 80-84 on the speedo (74-76gps) on normal trail conditions with a 144" Freeride , you can too! I'm running 19/41 gears on 8 tooth drivers which is identical to using a 17t upper on 9 tooth drivers on a short track.
 
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I'm also curious in what RPM it jumps to when you can it from a dead stop? Mine jumps to 11,600 and quickly drops to 11,200 and slowly creeps back to 11,500 as it approaches 80mph on the speedo. Most Phazers seem to break in fairly fast and over rev with stock clutch weights after the first 200-300 miles. I added almost 3 grams to each weight after 300miles and needed to add 1 gram more at 1,000 miles and haven't touched them since.
 
Spoke to another dealer today, who confirmed stock phazer see 79 - 84 mph range. The service tech said my problem is either clutches or ECU. But there is definitely a problem for sure. Just out of curiosity, are you guys' stock belts 8GK? Mine is. Still not sure why with stock clutches it won't go over 66. Anyone know how to test an ECU?

I understand (thank you blueiron) that I need to add weight to the tips to bring the rpm down. But I'm trying to understand why I missing ~ 20 mph on a stock setup. I am going to order heavier rivets tomorrow. Schmidt said 4.5 gram mid and 5.3 gram tip in his stage 2 kit. That is what I have. Someone suggested 2 grams heavier, so will 7 gram tip rivets be ok?
 
Your missing speed is the lack of power to the track. Past 12,000 rpm the ECU is pulling timing and your HP drops off a cliff, also your clutches are spinning faster and robbing even more HP. Stock phazer clutched properly only puts about 40hp to the ground, with your over rev and inefficient clutching you might be down to 30hp to the ground or less.
 
Thank you for the explanation. Like I stated, ordering the heavier rivets tomorrow will report back..
 
Belt deflection.. sits 1/4" down with both stock shims. Where is it supposed to be?
 

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This pic is same as last pic, just no shims in the secondary.

This is 3mm below the sheeves.
 

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That's another issue then. When we install the belt, it is sitting even or a little above. After you run the engine track on the stand a couple rotations, it sinks down. That's why we replaced the secondary spring, thinking it was weak. Seems like the secondary just doesn't have enough force to close after the belt runs down. The pick with the belt 1/4" doe is with both stock shims in between the sheeves. Last pic (3mm low) is with both shims removed. Starts level, sinks down won't come back up. That's why I was questioning also, if I had the correct belt. We did get the belt to stay up on time but had to ad 40 degrees of wrap (B2 on the helix)..

I get adding weight to the primary will bring the rpm down, just unsure of how much to add / where?

My sled is back to all the stock clutch components. So if I would figure out what the wait is on the factory llama hall tip rivets do I just add, say 3 g, to that and put that heavy of a rivet in the tip? And then don't touch the heel or the mid rivets at all or the primary spring? What about the helix? I have a 136" 1.5" free ride track. Should I have my stock helix move to B1 or A1? I'm still learning, sorry for the dumb questions about clutching..
 
Here's my secondary with no belt and no shims, very slight opening. 1 - 2mm max.
 

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Jayson said:
Belt deflection.. sits 1/4" down with both stock shims. Where is it supposed to be?
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You cannot set deflection by running on a stand. Engine braking is like applying the brake, and the belt will not climb back to the top of the secondary. When you ride the sled, the inertia from coming to a rolling stop closes the secondary back up. You need the sled to coast a bit for the belt to climb all the way yo the top. If you can set it to the top when you put the belt on, I wouldn't worry about it. Your problem is in the primary. I don't run schmidts kit (but know Chris from oval racing days and trust his expertise) or stock Phazer secondary anymore, but even when I did, we could see 80's in almost all conditions. Now, we can see 90 mph once in a while in ideal conditions. I did change gearing 1 tooth to help pull the 136 track (19 down to 18). Never rode it stock before the stretch, so not sure what it did for top speed. Blueironranger is on the right track. Work on your rpm.
 
Jayson said:
That's another issue then. When we install the belt, it is sitting even or a little above. After you run the engine track on the stand a couple rotations, it sinks down. That's why we replaced the secondary spring, thinking it was weak. Seems like the secondary just doesn't have enough force to close after the belt runs down. The pick with the belt 1/4" doe is with both stock shims in between the sheeves. Last pic (3mm low) is with both shims removed. Starts level, sinks down won't come back up. That's why I was questioning also, if I had the correct belt. We did get the belt to stay up on time but had to ad 40 degrees of wrap (B2 on the helix)..

I get adding weight to the primary will bring the rpm down, just unsure of how much to add / where?

My sled is back to all the stock clutch components. So if I would figure out what the wait is on the factory llama hall tip rivets do I just add, say 3 g, to that and put that heavy of a rivet in the tip? And then don't touch the heel or the mid rivets at all or the primary spring? What about the helix? I have a 136" 1.5" free ride track. Should I have my stock helix move to B1 or A1? I'm still learning, sorry for the dumb questions about clutching..
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There is no dumb questions this is how we all learn, start with the weight on your tips, leave the secondary in stock position and I believe SnoNinja is right your belt is sitting low because of the engine breaking is bringing the sheaves to a stop on the stand, start with that keeping in mind 11200- 11500 for a rpm
 
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