New Apex v. Ski Doo 800

[RX1]

Now what to do (sorry for the long post here).

Had made the decision to replace my 07 Apex with a new one. Looking around, really was not finding a great deal on a left over, so started pricing a 2014. Then, found a smoking deal on a new 2013 Ski Doo TNT 800. Was interested in that because I really want to get a better riding position ( I am 6' 4' and the older I get, the more cramped the sit down position feels). Rode it, was great handling but I was really disappointed with the 800 Etec. Power felt kinda flat. Then rode a 2012 Renegade (broken in) and that was not too bad, but the engine was still lacking.

Then on Saturday, I had the chance to ride a new 2013 Apex. OMG, what a difference the power steering has made to this sled!! I simply did not understand how much lighter it would feel (power was great too). I ride pretty aggressively and the lighter weight Ski Doo is appealing because of the handling in the tight stuff, but I am wondering how much better it would actually be as compared to the EPS Apex? So, looking for some input here:
1. Has anyone had a chance to ride the two sleds back to back? How did they compare in ride, cornering and power?
2. I keep hearing the 800 Ski Doo still has durability problems. Any first hand knowledge out there? Sealed crank bearings scare me!
3. Any thoughts on buying an Apex during this time of "transition" for Yamaha? I will be really ticked if I buy a new one and then the Apex gets a new chassis next year! No guarantees, I understand that, but looking for input anyway.
4. I know the newer Apex has a higher seat, but is still more of a sit down sled. How close is it to the new Ski Doo seating position from the standpoint of getting your knees below the hips? I have not been able to get the two sleds together.

Please, this is seriously not meant to be a bash on either sled, I am just truly trying to make up my mind which way to go. Been a Yamaha guy forever and the Apex engine will be incredibly hard to leave. But the newer style ride is appealing. All thoughts welcome! (and no, not interested in the new Viper)

 

[jtssrx]

I was going to buy a 2012 apex a few weeks ago. My dealer talked me out of it And I bought a 13 renegade 800. It's he best sled I've ever owned.

I road with three apexs this past weekend. The only one that was faster and when I say faster I mean on the top end was the mad Russians. It took him a long long way to go around me. He has a 2011 with air box mod clutching and pc5. My sled is stock except I put a ripsaw11 on it.

The other two apexs could not beat me. One ran close if he could hook if not I got 3 to 4 plus on him and would stay there. That was a 2012. The other one wasn't close at all. It was a 2007.

I also road all three apexs. The weight is really noticeable. When you go into a corner you feel the weight even on the power steering models. I can flick my sled around. The apex flicks you around .

 

[kviper]

Well we were just at the weenie roast (biggest lake race gathering in Wisconsin and perhaps the country) there were a few times that there were mostly trail sled's running so me and a friend with an 11 XTX had a chance to run a number of 800 E-tec's. There was not one that stood out in comparison to our Apex's. Very close to 660' than we would start pulling away. Snowmobiling is all about personal preferences. I have ridden a couple 800 E-tec's and tough very comparable in quick ness they feel slower and don't have the fun factor getting on and off the fun button. My Apex with power steering definately steered easier than both E-tec's and in my opinion the difference in weight is a non issue for trail riding. The Doo's definately had more viboration felt in my feet and in the bar's. I take pride in what my sled looks like and the Apex is a work of art compared to a Doo. It doesn't bother me a bit that Yamaha kept the Apex in the line up this long, it is still a tough all around sled to beat that will run forever and maintains the best resale in the business. I'am sure there will be many more opinion's but this is mine.

 

[Riceburner]

Doo 800 better for some, Apex better for others. I have driven and raced both.

I will try to be objective;

I think the Doo likely has a better riding position for you. I am shorter, 5'10" with 30" legs and the new Apex is better for me.

My stock 2011 TANK is faster than the 800 Doo's I have raced and quicker in a race longer than 660. That being said I hear the 2013 Doo 800's may be faster than previous years and I have not raced a 2013 yet so Jason & KViper are likely both correct in what they say. [what I don't understand is why the Doo's are so slow on a relative basis with a HP advantage plus 120 ish lb weight advantage]

800 Doo does not have the thick power band of the Ricer and as you say feel flat. Engine vibrates through the bars on Doo, smooth as silk the Apex is.

The Doo engine is disposable after 6,000 ish miles or has been so far. Doo recalled them all last year for major work at 3,000 miles. This alone would keep me away from a 800 Doo unless I was going to trade up every 5,000 miles.

Rear suspension goes to the Doo. Yamaha is fine but the Doo is better. Although the Apex was the best in OSM's closed course races last year.

Handling is a matter of opinion. I find the opposite of Jason that i can control the Apex because it is stable and the bouncy light Doo throws me around. [Apex is like a Lexus, Doo is like a Miata on steroids. Both great cars built for different drivers.]

Steering effort definitely less with the Apex. Found the Doo darty with heavy steering compared to my 2011 Apex but better than my old 2006 Apex before Sno Trackers and the Doo liked to lift the inside ski but it was controllable. I'm guessing this can be fixed with adjustment and or Carbides like the old Apex's.

QDR goes to the Ricer and I want to ride not be in the shop.

That being said, there is a reason Doo is # 1 by a long shot and if you have only a hold period of a sled of 5,000 miles and like the Doo better, you will likely enjoy it a lot. just make sure you buy warranty for as long as you are going to own it. I know Doo guys [2008 to 2011 on their second or third engine and one part way into a fourth. at $3,000 plus a pop I could not afford the down time or the $ ]

For me and my type of worry free riding there is no choice. Apex hands down. For Jtssrx, mike Knapp and a good riding buddy of mine the Doo is the one.

 

[jtssrx]

Best sled would be doo chassis with apex motor and Yamaha clutches. Two reasons I think the apex runs with the etec are yamaha's driveline is better and the Apex motor pulls almost 11000 RPMs and has four cylinders. it just pulls better on top. The 800 twin only pulls 7800 RPMs and on top the higher RPMs equals more mph. Weight isn't a factor for top end so the extra weight the apex carrys doesn't affect its top end.


as far as handling goes i've owned two apexs a 2006 attack and a 2011 with power steering. I'm sorry neither held a candle to the do in handle and ease of ride. The Power steering was a little closer but its still no contest. The Doo corners with ease. you flat out don't need power steering on the doo.

Then when you factor in the R motion its no contest.

Apex plus's
1. best Motor in any sled on the market
2. No oil to add "one oil change per year"
3. 50.00 belts
4. Sled feels like it never stops pulling.
5. great long day trail cruiser.

doo plus's
1. Light light Light
2. Super light steering "no need for power steering"
3. Ride quality front and back
4. Don't feel tired after riding
5. Fun factor you can ride the doo anywhere and have fun
6. runs great in any trail condition studder bumps, big bumps, loose snow
7. pilot skis work great "no need to add a after market sk
8. seating position is awesome



Apex minus
1. heavy heavy heavy
2. when you run it hard corner to corner you feel the weight.
3. Not an off trail deep snow sled
4. not a big bump or ditch sled
5. need to add things like excel wheels and a good set of skis
6. Seat position has a slouching feels.


Doo minus
1. two stroke oil
2. big dollar belts
3. not sure how long the motor will last.
4. crappy head lights need HIDs

 

[ranger1]

Best sled would be doo chassis with apex motor and Yamaha clutches. Two reasons I think the apex runs with the etec are yamaha's driveline is better and the Apex motor pulls almost 11000 RPMs and has four cylinders. it just pulls better on top. The 800 twin only pulls 7800 RPMs and on top the higher RPMs equals more mph. Weight isn't a factor for top end so the extra weight the apex carrys doesn't affect its top end.


as far as handling goes i've owned two apexs a 2006 attack and a 2011 with power steering. I'm sorry neither held a candle to the do in handle and ease of ride. The Power steering was a little closer but its still no contest. The Doo corners with ease. you flat out don't need power steering on the doo.

Then when you factor in the R motion its no contest.


Apex plus's
1. best Motor in any sled on the market
2. No oil to add "one oil change per year"
3. 50.00 belts
4. Sled feels like it never stops pulling.
5. great long day trail cruiser.

doo plus's
1. Light light Light
2. Super light steering "no need for power steering"
3. Ride quality front and back
4. Don't feel tired after riding
5. Fun factor you can ride the doo anywhere and have fun
6. runs great in any trail condition studder bumps, big bumps, loose snow
7. pilot skis work great "no need to add a after market sk
8. seating position is awesome



Apex minus
1. heavy heavy heavy
2. when you run it hard corner to corner you feel the weight.
3. Not an off trail deep snow sled
4. not a big bump or ditch sled
5. need to add things like excel wheels and a good set of skis
6. Seat position has a slouching feels.


Doo minus
1. two stroke oil
2. big dollar belts
3. not sure how long the motor will last.
4. crappy head lights need HIDs

"higher rpms' equals more mph? Different motors make their peak horsepower at different RPM's. Take the Cat Z1 Turbo for example, it produces 177hp at only 7800 rpm. My sled gets more topped out speed when I have it clutched to rev at 10,500 & is slower when it revs anything above that. Went with lighter tip weight, sled revved at 10,800 & was noticeably slower.

 

[Malibu]

Best sled would be doo chassis with apex motor and Yamaha clutches. Two reasons I think the apex runs with the etec are yamaha's driveline is better and the Apex motor pulls almost 11000 RPMs and has four cylinders. it just pulls better on top. The 800 twin only pulls 7800 RPMs and on top the higher RPMs equals more mph. Weight isn't a factor for top end so the extra weight the apex carrys doesn't affect its top end.


as far as handling goes i've owned two apexs a 2006 attack and a 2011 with power steering. I'm sorry neither held a candle to the do in handle and ease of ride. The Power steering was a little closer but its still no contest. The Doo corners with ease. you flat out don't need power steering on the doo.

Then when you factor in the R motion its no contest.
So if I get my Apex to rev to almost 22000 rpm,it will produce 300 hp??
Apex plus's
1. best Motor in any sled on the market
2. No oil to add "one oil change per year"
3. 50.00 belts
4. Sled feels like it never stops pulling.
5. great long day trail cruiser.

doo plus's
1. Light light Light
2. Super light steering "no need for power steering"
3. Ride quality front and back
4. Don't feel tired after riding
5. Fun factor you can ride the doo anywhere and have fun
6. runs great in any trail condition studder bumps, big bumps, loose snow
7. pilot skis work great "no need to add a after market sk
8. seating position is awesome



Apex minus
1. heavy heavy heavy
2. when you run it hard corner to corner you feel the weight.
3. Not an off trail deep snow sled
4. not a big bump or ditch sled
5. need to add things like excel wheels and a good set of skis
6. Seat position has a slouching feels.


Doo minus
1. two stroke oil
2. big dollar belts
3. not sure how long the motor will last.
4. crappy head lights need HIDs

 

[jtssrx]

Best sled would be doo chassis with apex motor and Yamaha clutches. Two reasons I think the apex runs with the etec are yamaha's driveline is better and the Apex motor pulls almost 11000 RPMs and has four cylinders. it just pulls better on top. The 800 twin only pulls 7800 RPMs and on top the higher RPMs equals more mph. Weight isn't a factor for top end so the extra weight the apex carrys doesn't affect its top end.


as far as handling goes i've owned two apexs a 2006 attack and a 2011 with power steering. I'm sorry neither held a candle to the do in handle and ease of ride. The Power steering was a little closer but its still no contest. The Doo corners with ease. you flat out don't need power steering on the doo.

Then when you factor in the R motion its no contest.




Apex plus's
1. best Motor in any sled on the market
2. No oil to add "one oil change per year"
3. 50.00 belts
4. Sled feels like it never stops pulling.
5. great long day trail cruiser.

doo plus's
1. Light light Light
2. Super light steering "no need for power steering"
3. Ride quality front and back
4. Don't feel tired after riding
5. Fun factor you can ride the doo anywhere and have fun
6. runs great in any trail condition studder bumps, big bumps, loose snow
7. pilot skis work great "no need to add a after market sk
8. seating position is awesome



Apex minus
1. heavy heavy heavy
2. when you run it hard corner to corner you feel the weight.
3. Not an off trail deep snow sled
4. not a big bump or ditch sled
5. need to add things like excel wheels and a good set of skis
6. Seat position has a slouching feels.


Doo minus
1. two stroke oil
2. big dollar belts
3. not sure how long the motor will last.
4. crappy head lights need HIDs

"higher rpms' equals more mph? Different motors make their peak horsepower at different RPM's. Take the Cat Z1 Turbo for example, it produces 177hp at only 7800 rpm. My sled gets more topped out speed when I have it clutched to rev at 10,500 & is slower when it revs anything above that. Went with lighter tip weight, sled revved at 10,800 & was noticeably slower.

if you take a gear chart and simply increase the rpm you will see a increase of MPH.

motor a makes 160hp at 7800 rpms

motor b make 160hp at 10600 rpms

Motor b will pull more MPH

This is why an apex has better top end compaired to the Etec. I understand there is a gear reduction and the RPMs are only about 800 to 1000 more at the clutch. using the calculator below. I used X gearing combo and simply did a 1000 rpm difference and it was a difference of 14mph.

http://www.turboaddictionparts.com/cata ... lator.html

 

[sgauthier]

don't forget the Apex has a gear reduction so the clutch is actually spinning at approx 8300rpm compared to the DOO at 7900-8000rpm. motor might be revving higher but not at the clutch. just saying

the DOO 800 e-tec Rene is a nice sled and works very well. this would have been my choice had i wanted a DOO 2-stroke but i do not regret buying the APEX. Friend of mine went from a 2008 Apex to the 2013 rene X 800 e-tec and loves it.

 

[RW06GT]

You forgot a Doo minus - vibration, vibration, vibration. It's a disposable sled. Only doo to consider is the xr.

 

[bottlerocket]

Best sled would be doo chassis with apex motor and Yamaha clutches. Two reasons I think the apex runs with the etec are yamaha's driveline is better and the Apex motor pulls almost 11000 RPMs and has four cylinders. it just pulls better on top. The 800 twin only pulls 7800 RPMs and on top the higher RPMs equals more mph. Weight isn't a factor for top end so the extra weight the apex carrys doesn't affect its top end.


as far as handling goes i've owned two apexs a 2006 attack and a 2011 with power steering. I'm sorry neither held a candle to the do in handle and ease of ride. The Power steering was a little closer but its still no contest. The Doo corners with ease. you flat out don't need power steering on the doo.

Then when you factor in the R motion its no contest.


Apex plus's
1. best Motor in any sled on the market
2. No oil to add "one oil change per year"
3. 50.00 belts
4. Sled feels like it never stops pulling.
5. great long day trail cruiser.

doo plus's
1. Light light Light
2. Super light steering "no need for power steering"
3. Ride quality front and back
4. Don't feel tired after riding
5. Fun factor you can ride the doo anywhere and have fun
6. runs great in any trail condition studder bumps, big bumps, loose snow
7. pilot skis work great "no need to add a after market sk
8. seating position is awesome



Apex minus
1. heavy heavy heavy
2. when you run it hard corner to corner you feel the weight.
3. Not an off trail deep snow sled
4. not a big bump or ditch sled
5. need to add things like excel wheels and a good set of skis
6. Seat position has a slouching feels.


Doo minus
1. two stroke oil
2. big dollar belts
3. not sure how long the motor will last.
4. crappy head lights need HIDs

"higher rpms' equals more mph? Different motors make their peak horsepower at different RPM's. Take the Cat Z1 Turbo for example, it produces 177hp at only 7800 rpm. My sled gets more topped out speed when I have it clutched to rev at 10,500 & is slower when it revs anything above that. Went with lighter tip weight, sled revved at 10,800 & was noticeably slower.

Spinning at 10800 you are not making any power, your past your powerband. If you could make power to 10800 it would be a different story but then cvt efficeincy is lost which makes this even more confusing! lol

 

[jtssrx]

don't forget the Apex has a gear reduction so the clutch is actually spinning at approx 8300rpm compared to the DOO at 7900-8000rpm. motor might be revving higher but not at the clutch. just saying

the DOO 800 e-tec Rene is a nice sled and works very well. this would have been my choice had i wanted a DOO 2-stroke but i do not regret buying the APEX. Friend of mine went from a 2008 Apex to the 2013 rene X 800 e-tec and loves it.

the apex spins 8650 when the motor spins 10300 I believe. a lot of guys run there sleds around 10800.
.

 

[jtssrx]

Im pretty sure when Mike Knapp raced his vmax four he would gear it low to get a great 60 foot spin the motor really high to pull the MPH out of the RPM. Its a proven fact the higher the rpm at the clutch the higher the MPH.

 

[ranger1]

Im pretty sure when Mike Knapp raced his vmax four he would gear it low to get a great 60 foot spin the motor really high to pull the MPH out of the RPM. Its a proven fact the higher the rpm at the clutch the higher the MPH.

I always found that over revving up & above where the motor makes its most hp loses on top end. The higher your rpm goes above the peak (where it makes the most hp) the less hp it makes, the hp curve falls off. e.g if my sled supposedly makes 150 hp at 10,500 rpm, at 10,800 it might only produce 147hp higher than that would be even less.
Each to their own on this one I guess.

 

[jtssrx]

Im pretty sure when Mike Knapp raced his vmax four he would gear it low to get a great 60 foot spin the motor really high to pull the MPH out of the RPM. Its a proven fact the higher the rpm at the clutch the higher the MPH.

I always found that over revving up & above where the motor makes its most hp loses on top end. The higher your rpm goes above the peak (where it makes the most hp) the less hp it makes, the hp curve falls off. e.g if my sled supposedly makes 150 hp at 10,500 rpm, at 10,800 it might only produce 147hp higher than that would be even less.
Each to their own on this one I guess.

im not talking about over reving. The cluth spins 8650 at peak power level on a apex. The etec is 7800 thats a different of 850 rpms. I just ran the numbers on the calculator and it's a 9 mph difference.

This is why the apex wins in a long race. The only chance the etec has is to put distance out of the hole on it and hope it can't catch and get around