Apex vs Viper???

[ranger1]

Each to their own as the Apex as well as the Viper are awesome sleds. Those who like twisty trails & boondocking might prefer the Viper, those like myself who love the brute power & the awesomeness of the power steering stick to our Apex's. In my area, most of my riding is on small untouched lakes that accumulate lots of snow, there is more lakes than land, lol. This where the Apex XTX shines, flat snowy lakes where you can wind e'r out & hold it to the pickle all day long if you choose to, this is where the Vipers fall behind but at least you can hold them wide open which is something that you CANNOT do with any two smoke

 

[4StrokeAddict]

Each to their own as the Apex as well as the Viper are awesome sleds. Those who like twisty trails & boondocking might prefer the Viper, those like myself who love the brute power & the awesomeness of the power steering stick to our Apex's. In my area, most of my riding is on small untouched lakes that accumulate lots of snow, there is more lakes than land, lol. This where the Apex XTX shines, flat snowy lakes where you can wind e'r out & hold it to the pickle all day long if you choose to, this is where the Vipers fall behind but at least you can hold them wide open which is something that you CANNOT do with any two smoke

Well said. But if you want more power than a Apex, get a Viper with stock turbo.

 

[Sasquatch]

Well said. But if you want more power than a Apex, get a Viper with stock turbo.

If you want way more power get an Apex with a Turbo!

 

[ranger1]

If you want way more power get an Apex with a Turbo!

Yip I concur, have seen many insane mountain climb videos of Turboed Apexs, they are the king of the mountains!!!!!!!!!! When you add that much power to a lonnnng deep lugged track, ain't no stopping them!
As far as Turboed Vipers, a dude I know has one & say's that he gets to 100mph fast but she don't got much more. They did lots of tweeking but it didn't help. He also says that he cannot beat a stock Apex on top end. I am going just on what he told me, have not raced him personally.

 

[4StrokeAddict]

If you want way more power get an Apex with a Turbo!

Ah, but the viper stock MPI turbo doesn't violate warranty. The Viper contains the biggest sanctioned HP from Yamaha. Anything beyond that is racer/modifier territory. Viper beats Apex HP from the showroom floor if you take the option.

As far as Turboed Vipers, a dude I know has one & say's that he gets to 100mph fast but she don't got much more.

Check out NosPro's numbers. He is still naturally aspirated doing the quarter in the upper 10s range @ 118 MPH the last time I checked. The viper is clutch terribly from factory. Fix that and you are good. Additionally, you can get the viper really close to Apex HP numbers N/A with intake, header and exhaust. Given its weight advantage, it is a strong Apex competitor with a little elbow grease.

 

[4StrokeAddict]

This is the problem I have with the viper. Because it isn't a true Yamaha, it gets knocked by folks that don't have all their facts. Again, RIDE both side by side and then make a decision. The viper rides very different than an Apex. Coming off a XTC, I thought the Apex drove like crap. It took about 3 rides to get use to it before I started liking it. Moving to the Viper, I thought the transition was easier, but still very different. It took a weekend to find my confidence and I still am not accustom to how much body English it wants. To each their own, both sleds are great sleds. I prefer a viper, but I spent 3 full weekends on a Apex before deciding on the viper and still swap sleds with apex riders on ocasion. As I said before, try it before you knock it and keep to the facts.

 

[ranger1]

Ah, but the viper stock MPI turbo doesn't violate warranty. The Viper contains the biggest sanctioned HP from Yamaha. Anything beyond that is racer/modifier territory. Viper beats Apex HP from the showroom floor if you take the option.


Check out NosPro's numbers. He is still naturally aspirated doing the quarter in the upper 10s range @ 118 MPH the last time I checked. The viper is clutch terribly from factory. Fix that and you are good. Additionally, you can get the viper really close to Apex HP numbers N/A with intake, header and exhaust. Given its weight advantage, it is a strong Apex competitor with a little elbow grease.

What are the hp numbers for a stock turboed Viper anyway? I thought it was 192ish but could be wrong

 

[4StrokeAddict]

I'm far from an expert here, but have done lots of research and pay attention to all the turbo posts. The trail turbo is usually just over 180HP, depends on who tunes it. 180-185 seems about normal. Folks pushing 190 and above are typically using a stage 1 kit. You are pushing it around 6psi without an intercooler (not sure exactly where that number becomes critical).

 

[Sasquatch]

Ah, but the viper stock MPI turbo doesn't violate warranty. The Viper contains the biggest sanctioned HP from Yamaha. Anything beyond that is racer/modifier territory. Viper beats Apex HP from the showroom floor if you take the option.

So true the Viper with the turbo and a huge amount of tweaking will break 100 mph. The Apex stock will do it all day and every day. The Apex can be pinned and held for 10 to 20 mile long lakes, the Viper turbo can not. The Viper stock has a hard time to get past 85 mph. Not to mention but I will, the Apex sounds so much better doing it.

Apex still gets my vote! The 11 up is such a refined chassis and powerhouse. To call it old is so wrong. Hard to improve upon perfection!

 

[greatwhite89]

Well said Sasquatch!!!

Sent from my XT1055 using Tapatalk

 

[4StrokeAddict]

So true the Viper with the turbo and a huge amount of tweaking will break 100 mph

Facts: As previously stated, the viper requires fixing of the stock Yamaha clutches. Yamaha is doing a crap job at machining the clutches. There are plenty of threads detailing the problem (thanks NosPro and others for leading the charge to figure this all out and explaining it all to us). Take a file to the secondary windows and you will fix the problem. It has been proven that the stock viper with flashing removed on the secondary window will hit 101 MPH. Though it shouldn't be required, this doesn't seem like a lot of tweaking to me... A little more tweaking with springs, weights, kits and clutch face machining and it will do better. The turbo viper will easily hit 100 MPH and then a lot more.

Personal opinion: Even though my turbo viper should be hitting 115+ this winter, I have little interest in going that fast. Its more about how quickly I can get to 100. Bone stock with less than 500 miles, I was already beating Apexes to 70 and kicking their @$$ in the twisties but maxing out at around 90MPH due to clutch bind. With fixed clutches, I anticipate it would do better when pitted against an apex though the apex would still get it on the top end. With trail turbo being added as I write this, I doubt there will be a contest... I'll be happy to report back. Again, I'm not knocking the Apex, it is a great sled. I wish my stock viper had its engine. The Apex IS more refined than the Viper. But IMHO, the geometry is old, the ergonomics of the seat require modifications and it is too heavy. The weight and geometry is why I do circles around our Apexes in the twisties. The trail turbo more than makes up for the lack of the 4 hole engine. Just another perspective...

Again, please make sure you have your facts straight. We should be informing people of the good and bad of both sleds. Heavily partisan views will not help people make good, informed decision. Please give credit where credit is due. Both sleds are great sleds, just depends on what you are looking for. When the Viper has been out as long as the Apex, I'm sure it will be just as well refined.

 

[sx7001]

Vipers I see around here are pretty slow. Had to push a few out of the way in the twisties. Its more to do with the driver and setup IMO. Sounds like the viper is a big money pit if you want to go fast......

 

[Sasquatch]

Facts: As previously stated, the viper requires fixing of the stock Yamaha clutches. Yamaha is doing a crap job at machining the clutches. There are plenty of threads detailing the problem (thanks NosPro and others for leading the charge to figure this all out and explaining it all to us). Take a file to the secondary windows and you will fix the problem. It has been proven that the stock viper with flashing removed on the secondary window will hit 101 MPH. Though it shouldn't be required, this doesn't seem like a lot of tweaking to me... A little more tweaking with springs, weights, kits and clutch face machining and it will do better. The turbo viper will easily hit 100 MPH and then a lot more.

Personal opinion: Even though my turbo viper should be hitting 115+ this winter, I have little interest in going that fast. Its more about how quickly I can get to 100. Bone stock with less than 500 miles, I was already beating Apexes to 70 and kicking their @$$ in the twisties but maxing out at around 90MPH due to clutch bind. With fixed clutches, I anticipate it would do better when pitted against an apex though the apex would still get it on the top end. With trail turbo being added as I write this, I doubt there will be a contest... I'll be happy to report back. Again, I'm not knocking the Apex, it is a great sled. I wish my stock viper had its engine. The Apex IS more refined than the Viper. But IMHO, the geometry is old, the ergonomics of the seat require modifications and it is too heavy. The weight and geometry is why I do circles around our Apexes in the twisties. The trail turbo more than makes up for the lack of the 4 hole engine. Just another perspective...

Again, please make sure you have your facts straight. We should be informing people of the good and bad of both sleds. Heavily partisan views will not help people make good, informed decision. Please give credit where credit is due. Both sleds are great sleds, just depends on what you are looking for. When the Viper has been out as long as the Apex, I'm sure it will be just as well refined.

Hmm so a bit of tweaking and the Apex gains how much? With a turbo the Apex gains how much? You want the underdog to win and I understand that! You don't like the Apex cause its old and refined, I like it for those reasons! You don't like the weight and geometry but I think it makes the sled more stable at speed in fact the faster you push an Apex the more stable it becomes. You like going faster around tight corners, I don't because I can't see around tight corners and have met a way to many who think they can. Yes the Viper will turn tighter then a Apex on a slower corner, its the high speed sweeping corners that the Apex excels at, the ones you can see what coming on.

The addition of a turbo to the three hole does make up HP but in no way out shines the four. It puts the Viper on par HP wise and monetarily wise. The money you saved on the Viper now goes into turbo kit and a plethora of other upgrades to make it as fast as an Apex stock. In the end you wind up spending more. What you gain with that is more under hood heat, and more restrictions in what you can do with that power. No I like my NA Apex. Simple air box, clutch kit with re machining of the sheaves and fuel controller gives me 167 but the last I heard was over 170, but its such a powerhouse stock!

Now you mentioned what you don't like about the Apex so I'll mention what I don't like about the Viper. The motor in the Cat chassis is an after thought. I does not fit right because the chassis was not made for it. It sits quite high as compared to the cat engines the chassis was designed for. The next problem is the jackshaft which is in the way of the exhaust along with the 180 degree bend in the pipe. Again a cobbled together design and the Viper lost how much HP? Next broken gears and damaged motors because of bad starting caused by Cats inability to get their CPU programmed right. I hate the oil for the motor as part of the chaincase and checking level with a sight glass instead of a dipstick. Poor parasitic design of the bearing system in the chaincase and failures in the design. Use of a soft belt that does not last instead of the Yami belt so you have to modify that.

Now the plus's Nice front end, nice rear skid. IMHO Yamaha should have traded the motor for just those things and build them into a Yamaha chassis based on the Nytro. I still wouldn't buy one because the Apex fits every need I have. But I'd like it alot more! Apex best groomed trail sled out there but so many think it should be changed to be a ditch basher/procross racer. What a way to ruin the flagship!

 

[ranger1]

Last year a friend of mine had her brand new Viper at the dealers. When they went to start it in the parking lot something went on the starter & blew a hole through the block, yikes!!!!!!!!!!

 

[superb]

I own both and yes the Viper handles better, riding position is more comfortable and has a better fuel range ever with a turbo. I ran a Hurricane 190 turbo kit on mine, which I believe is the best turbo on the market. My Apex runs strong, but it cannot come close to my turbo Viper. That being said, the Viper fit and finish is terrible, squeaking front suspension and the rusting rivet's all over the chassis is not acceptable. I put 2000 trouble free miles on my Viper last season and sold it. I will drive my Apex until Yamaha comes out with there own chassis, which I am sure they will.