belt problems, gearing related ?.

[helix]

Just thought I'd post a few notes based on the past seasons on riders using these sidewinders for some time now.

Of course, there is always lots of talk about everyone's favorite clutch recipe and all of that....it is always a well discussed topic and some set ups have become popular, but the gearing is sometimes not discussed.
It SHOULD be always discussed if you are comparing clutching info...sometimes getting info from someone and not using the same gears can make the discussion somewhat irrelevant.

However...gearing itself in general should aso be discussed sometimes.

I'm simply taking a moment to post this ( well because I was in here to answer something anyways),..but because we correspond through email regularly with a lot of very good/experienced sled tuners on a regular basis, and gearing is a topic that doesnt always get enough consideration as part of the outcome.

The discussion is often "belt life".

There are some who have of course had belt troubles more than others...and in some cases alignment issues and such are way off and have contributed to that. The alignment and clutch set ups are well discussed here and this topic is not about that.
What I'm referring to here is GEARING.

There are some who will quickly want to state " Yamaha clutches are wrong and Arctic Cats dont blow belts!"
sorry to tell some of those that yes, they do as well if not set up correctly.
In fact the arctic cats are part of the reason I'm posting this.

The cats come with very low gearing (24/50). and it seems that stock there is less trouble there with belts.
Many, especially after a tune for more hp want to change that gearing to the sidewinder gearing...they put in 21/41 and if they get clutch set up good and such it is pretty well like that..
....if they go to 22 top gear, it is clear that there are more belt heat and blown belts...and guys chasing clutching around to try to get the best of both worlds. Many now seem to have realized or want to admit that they are trying to chasea lot of other things but going to 22 top gear created other issues.

I'm nopt saying to not go to that taller gearing if that is what you want to do. but I'm suggesting to make sure that you tune for what you do most of the time and make priorities.

If you really like to run hard in the trails and nail it out of any corner...and thats what you bought the sled for, the stock winder gearing is probably better....thats how it is.

If you want to run the big top speed number like the guy on the internet did...the taller gearing is not only wanted but required, and the taller the better probably. Speed runs testing will prove it...lower the sled...run tall gears....
If doing drag and spped runs is the priority, it is what it is.

There are even some who leave it this way all the time and trail ride like that as well. ..but "trail ride" is speculative word. some guys that do this with tall gears tell me that they can make a belt last...and it is based on them.,....and their thumb.
If you ride big open trails and rail lines it is often very do-able...if you ride woods trails with your buddies and hammer it out of corners, ....you will soon learn to swallow the facts and lower the gearing.

With proper gearing for trails you can clutch more aggressively and get away with it.


This is just something I thought worth mentioning from what we hear from the Arctic cat side.

 

[74Nitro]

Just thought I'd post a few notes based on the past seasons on riders using these sidewinders for some time now.

Of course, there is always lots of talk about everyone's favorite clutch recipe and all of that....it is always a well discussed topic and some set ups have become popular, but the gearing is sometimes not discussed.
It SHOULD be always discussed if you are comparing clutching info...sometimes getting info from someone and not using the same gears can make the discussion somewhat irrelevant.

However...gearing itself in general should aso be discussed sometimes.

I'm simply taking a moment to post this ( well because I was in here to answer something anyways),..but because we correspond through email regularly with a lot of very good/experienced sled tuners on a regular basis, and gearing is a topic that doesnt always get enough consideration as part of the outcome.

The discussion is often "belt life".

There are some who have of course had belt troubles more than others...and in some cases alignment issues and such are way off and have contributed to that. The alignment and clutch set ups are well discussed here and this topic is not about that.
What I'm referring to here is GEARING.

There are some who will quickly want to state " Yamaha clutches are wrong and Arctic Cats dont blow belts!"
sorry to tell some of those that yes, they do as well if not set up correctly.
In fact the arctic cats are part of the reason I'm posting this.

The cats come with very low gearing (24/50). and it seems that stock there is less trouble there with belts.
Many, especially after a tune for more hp want to change that gearing to the sidewinder gearing...they put in 21/41 and if they get clutch set up good and such it is pretty well like that..
....if they go to 22 top gear, it is clear that there are more belt heat and blown belts...and guys chasing clutching around to try to get the best of both worlds. Many now seem to have realized or want to admit that they are trying to chasea lot of other things but going to 22 top gear created other issues.

I'm nopt saying to not go to that taller gearing if that is what you want to do. but I'm suggesting to make sure that you tune for what you do most of the time and make priorities.

If you really like to run hard in the trails and nail it out of any corner...and thats what you bought the sled for, the stock winder gearing is probably better....thats how it is.

If you want to run the big top speed number like the guy on the internet did...the taller gearing is not only wanted but required, and the taller the better probably. Speed runs testing will prove it...lower the sled...run tall gears....
If doing drag and spped runs is the priority, it is what it is.

There are even some who leave it this way all the time and trail ride like that as well. ..but "trail ride" is speculative word. some guys that do this with tall gears tell me that they can make a belt last...and it is based on them.,....and their thumb.
If you ride big open trails and rail lines it is often very do-able...if you ride woods trails with your buddies and hammer it out of corners, ....you will soon learn to swallow the facts and lower the gearing.

With proper gearing for trails you can clutch more aggressively and get away with it.


This is just something I thought worth mentioning from what we hear from the Arctic cat side.

Great post. What top speeds can the Cats run with that gearing?
What I have found is that a tuned Winder with stock gears, even the XTX with smaller drivers, is still able to pull more top speed than any competitors sleds. At least that has been my experience.
And aside from radar runs, etc, I guess that is all I need.
I've also noticed that even when my Winder is fully shifted, I still have alot of unused RPM to take over(9400)

 

[**sj**]

Ive been saying this for months to the guys who are blowing belts...nobody listened...but I think now they are getting the picture...

 

[Doc Harley]

While it's an easy to understand concept

Taller gear is going to work belt harder and shorter gearing will work belt less. I get it.

I find it odd that all the minds in our industry can't get the clutching to match the taller gearing and riding style.

Maybe it's just me.

 

[**sj**]

While it's an easy to understand concept

Taller gear is going to work belt harder and shorter gearing will work belt less. I get it.

I find it odd that all the minds in our industry can't get the clutching to match the taller gearing and riding style.

Maybe it's just me.

its physics joe.. nothing more or less....think pedaling a 10 speed bike and how gear changes affect the load on your legs...same principle...the belt is your legs.....gearing taller might gain you mph but increases belt load...traction and weight are also factors in load..

 

[number1kyster]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe Cat elected to go with lower gearing on their models based on experience with the 1100T's blowing belts. Lower gearing helps increase belt life. So, the Cat guys on HCS like to claim their clutches are better because there are less belt blowing issues being reported. How fast can these Cat versions run with stock gearing? One of my friends bought a brand new 2018 T-Cat and he was telling us that the first day he had it, he was struggling to get over 100. The same day, in the same conditions I had my Dad's SW up to 112. He was hoping it would loosen up and show more speed with more miles.

I don't believe the Cat clutches are better than Yamaha's. I'm a trail rider, so I would be perfectly happy with lower gearing if it improved belt life. If Cat clutches were equal in quality I would probably choose a Cat version.

 

[Doc Harley]

Steve,
Thank you for putting that into perspective.

Joe

 

[**sj**]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe Cat elected to go with lower gearing on their models based on experience with the 1100T's blowing belts. Lower gearing helps increase belt life. So, the Cat guys on HCS like to claim their clutches are better because there are less belt blowing issues being reported. How fast can these Cat versions run with stock gearing? One of my friends bought a brand new 2018 T-Cat and he was telling us that the first day he had it, he was struggling to get over 100. The same day, in the same conditions I had my Dad's SW up to 112. He was hoping it would loosen up and show more speed with more miles.

I don't believe the Cat clutches are better than Yamaha's. I'm a trail rider, so I would be perfectly happy with lower gearing if it improved belt life. If Cat clutches were equal in quality I would probably choose a Cat version.

you are right with the first part.

cat did this specifically to limit belt blowing..

The team clutches are not better than yam's....much to the contrary...

the team primaries have had their woes....and Im fairly certain their drive rollers like their aren't replaceable...

also...the secondary is a two roller unit (wobble) with pressed in thin metal bushings which when they fail the entire sheave gets pitched..

whereas the parts and pieces to the yam can be serviced and is on a splined shaft compared to a sliding shaft...

Add to this cat has a belt designed for the turbo ($185?) ....whereas yam's belt is borrowed from a 140 h.p. viper....($105)

 

[number1kyster]

Good to know. Thanks for sharing.

 

[helix]

all have made good points here.

It seems to be fairly well proven now,..and by people who know whats going on and have looked over things well and tested a lot, so it is what it is. There is no question that it is a big part of the picture.

When you really think about it some have added substantial trailable HP...a pretty good amount.
Now add to that the quicker spooling compared to a stocker...fast response of a big pile of HP......and add more aggressive clutching....but now you also want to start off in third gear because you put gears in the chain case to get this top speed.

It would be real nice if you could add a one inch larger secondary clutch ( like all the old 2 stroke Thundercat asphalt racers did, added the bearcat secondary clutch ) to make up for the gear ratio in the chain case, but thats not so easy for the masses.

I only mentioned it so that some people who know they are primarily a trail rider may not want to add the gear if it is not what is the highest priority to them.
Thats all.

 

[thor452]

makes me want to gear down. would that be a negative effect in fuel millage? If I could get my sled to top out just north of 115 on the speedo (normal trail conditions) I would still beat everyone in my group and get there a heck of a lot faster and probably get more transfer/front end lift from the lower gearing. I fully intend to get a tune and stud my sled for next season I wonder if I should leave the gearing as is or gear down a bit. I wish I had a chance to put on 2000 miles this year to really get a feel for my belt life.

 

[Beerman]

Steve pointed this out to me early on this season, so thanks @**sj** ! I'll be going back to 21 top gear when I clean out my chain case in the off-season.

 

[NYTurbo]

I' going to gashed for this but I'm not convinced the yamaha clutches are better than the cats. Most tuned cats upped gears too. Not seeing the same problems. I honestly think a lot of the problem is related to the belts.

 

[**sj**]

Get 3000-4000 tuned miles on a team secondary and let me know if you still feel that way lol

Would be interesting to know cats vs can sheave and belt angles though..

 

[NYTurbo]

Two locally both pushing 4000 miles, one guy on original belt , second guy just changed for the sake of changing at over 4000 miles. Both 270 hp and both clutches quiet as day one. You can knock about 1500 miles off due to clutch recall. Also virtually no belt dust. Also have a guy stock with around 3500 miles original belt that towed another sled 60 miles on a trip and still running that belt. I'm Not buying the yamaha clutch is better theory anymore. My own personal sled I put 1500 miles on stock cat clutches before I went STMs and that belt still looks new. STMs have 2000 miles on them and primary is due for a rebuild .