Another member brought up the lack of discussions around communication systems and doing a quick search I see a few discussions but not a lot of detail. Since I am a technology guy learning a lot from all of you by just hanging out on the forums (glued to the sidewinder forum even though I own an apex), I figured this is how I could contribute something back.
I currently run a Cardo Packtalk Bold as do most of the people I ride motorcycles with. Last year we used them for snowmobiling as well, more on that in a second. I have also used Sena (10s, 20s, 50) various Sena interfaces, and some off brands as well as CB, GMRS, FRS and MURS radios. My typical ride includes the Cardo Packtalk Bold, a Garmin InReach mini, and puxing GMRS radio as backup.
This post is long so BLUF (bottom line up front) as dad would say;
A group of us that ride together summer and winter all have switched from various options to Cardo Packtalk Bolds and nobody is looking back. They are very useful, add another dimension of enjoyment to riding, and overall they have been a great investment. Are they perfect, nope, but Cardo seems to be a company that is listening so I expect that they will take the feedback provided and make the adjustments to improve their products for ATV/UTV/Snowmobiles. For motorcycles they are already very good. Since they were released Cardo has improved many aspects of the software and continues to develop and support a system that is several years old now, a rarity in todays day of disposable electronics. I expect that they will come out with a newer system for the summer riding season (their main market) but all of the current models will work fine for the foreseeable future. If you are all interested in communications the cardo packtalk bold is hard to beat.
I currently run a Cardo Packtalk Bold as do most of the people I ride motorcycles with. Last year we used them for snowmobiling as well, more on that in a second. I have also used Sena (10s, 20s, 50) various Sena interfaces, and some off brands as well as CB, GMRS, FRS and MURS radios. My typical ride includes the Cardo Packtalk Bold, a Garmin InReach mini, and puxing GMRS radio as backup.
This post is long so BLUF (bottom line up front) as dad would say;
A group of us that ride together summer and winter all have switched from various options to Cardo Packtalk Bolds and nobody is looking back. They are very useful, add another dimension of enjoyment to riding, and overall they have been a great investment. Are they perfect, nope, but Cardo seems to be a company that is listening so I expect that they will take the feedback provided and make the adjustments to improve their products for ATV/UTV/Snowmobiles. For motorcycles they are already very good. Since they were released Cardo has improved many aspects of the software and continues to develop and support a system that is several years old now, a rarity in todays day of disposable electronics. I expect that they will come out with a newer system for the summer riding season (their main market) but all of the current models will work fine for the foreseeable future. If you are all interested in communications the cardo packtalk bold is hard to beat.
My experience with the Cardo Packtalk Bold. While the units are several years old now (and literally 10s of thousands of miles of use) they still are in my opinion, the best bluetooth based comms systems available and I have a box full of ones I no longer use. Now that Sena has their latest available (with mesh and extended range) in the 50 series, they are also a viable option but they still missed the boat on weatherproofing.
The good.
General use
Once the systems are set up they are basically bomb proof. In the several years we have been using them we have only had to reset one of the units and repair it to our riding group, otherwise they have been very consistently a no brainer to use. My wife doesn’t join us for many adventures so her helmet sits for months and then she will decide she wants to join. All we have to do is charge her unit and she is back in business. The rest of us use ours quite a lot and they have been great. If you have a good Bluetooth system in your car you know what to expect, get in, fire up the engine and go.
Packtalk Bold installed on CKX Mission
The good.
General use
Once the systems are set up they are basically bomb proof. In the several years we have been using them we have only had to reset one of the units and repair it to our riding group, otherwise they have been very consistently a no brainer to use. My wife doesn’t join us for many adventures so her helmet sits for months and then she will decide she wants to join. All we have to do is charge her unit and she is back in business. The rest of us use ours quite a lot and they have been great. If you have a good Bluetooth system in your car you know what to expect, get in, fire up the engine and go.
Packtalk Bold installed on CKX Mission
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The mesh network.
If you have never used a mesh radio before it works like this; All riders are basically on the same network by default once everyone is paired. When you talk, everyone can hear you, and if you happen to be listening to music at the time the mesh will override the music (muting music so you can hear everyone else). Riders who wish to have private conversations can do so by leaving/joining the mesh anytime they want either in the app or on the device. This works fantastic in a group setting where the pillions (the girls in this case) can have their own conversation while all the pilots can carry on telling jokes, etc.. If you are a member of a mesh network (and you can have multiple groups) simply riding up to the group has you automatically join the conversation. One of my riding buddies (snowmobile or motorcycle) starts talking before he even gets to my house where we start out. He gets a tone in his ear when he is within range and basically just starts jabberin away.
Weather, battery life and construction quality.
I have had the PTB (packtalk bold) out in raging rainstorms, temps from -24c to +40c, in the snow, hail, sleet, etc and it has never failed. In our group we have not had a single failure out of the dozen riders who have now owned these units for several years. Battery life has been similar for everyone, basically all day riding without issues but.. you can also charge the units while you ride by using any portable USB battery pack and the right cable. I did bring a battery along for the first 6 months or so but never used it once and then just stopped bringing that battery pack. Construction is an 8/10, it could be improved as could the ergonomics somewhat but they are packing a lot of features into a compact unit with only a few buttons so I cannot really complain.
If you have never used a mesh radio before it works like this; All riders are basically on the same network by default once everyone is paired. When you talk, everyone can hear you, and if you happen to be listening to music at the time the mesh will override the music (muting music so you can hear everyone else). Riders who wish to have private conversations can do so by leaving/joining the mesh anytime they want either in the app or on the device. This works fantastic in a group setting where the pillions (the girls in this case) can have their own conversation while all the pilots can carry on telling jokes, etc.. If you are a member of a mesh network (and you can have multiple groups) simply riding up to the group has you automatically join the conversation. One of my riding buddies (snowmobile or motorcycle) starts talking before he even gets to my house where we start out. He gets a tone in his ear when he is within range and basically just starts jabberin away.
Weather, battery life and construction quality.
I have had the PTB (packtalk bold) out in raging rainstorms, temps from -24c to +40c, in the snow, hail, sleet, etc and it has never failed. In our group we have not had a single failure out of the dozen riders who have now owned these units for several years. Battery life has been similar for everyone, basically all day riding without issues but.. you can also charge the units while you ride by using any portable USB battery pack and the right cable. I did bring a battery along for the first 6 months or so but never used it once and then just stopped bringing that battery pack. Construction is an 8/10, it could be improved as could the ergonomics somewhat but they are packing a lot of features into a compact unit with only a few buttons so I cannot really complain.
Noise control/Cancelation
Really, really good. During the summer months, some of the members of the group wear salad bowls on their motorcycles (half helmets) and during the winter some wear really cheap (CHEAP) snowmobile helmets which I think amplify the engine noise. The system has really good noise cancellation and you basically do not hear wind or engine noise unless there is a sudden change in noise (like turning your head in the wind while wearing an open face helmet). I have attended board meetings while riding my motorcycle in another state and nobody was the wiser.
Flexibility and installation
They come with boom mics, stick on mics, and several different ways to attach the unit to the helmet. They all work. Last year rode my apex with the PTB attached via the glue on mounting plate with no issues. I was concerned about the cold affecting the glue but it didn't happen, the mounting plate stayed stuck and in fact is a pain to remove now that I am selling that helmet. This year I am using a clip-in bracket which feels a bit stronger. I have the mounting bracket/plate on 4 different helmets now (CKX Mission, BV2S, Schuberth C3 Pro, and an FXR) and there is always a way to get the system installed securely. All my units have the JBL speaker option which is a slightly larger diameter (45mm vs 40mm) and slightly thicker speaker than the standard model. As an audiophile I can say that the sound is 'acceptable' but everyone else in our group thinks they are great. On a bike they beat any bike mounted speakers that are trying to fight road noise, on the sled they can only be beat by having in ear monitors. Even though I own a lot of high-end IEMs I don't like wearing them on any vehicle because they isolate you too much from the world around you, its all about compromise. As far as installation goes, it typically takes me 10-30 minutes depending on the helmet and how much of a hurry I am to get them installed. The BV2S was a disaster of a helmet for comms integration. fog control - yep, but no way to really install the microphone in a reasonable way. The CKX Mission (like most of my other helmets) was easy to install and in my opinion, it is the best option out there for installing a communicator of any kind (have not tried, nor interested in Oxygen).
A properly positioned boom mic allows conversation with the face shield up or down
Really, really good. During the summer months, some of the members of the group wear salad bowls on their motorcycles (half helmets) and during the winter some wear really cheap (CHEAP) snowmobile helmets which I think amplify the engine noise. The system has really good noise cancellation and you basically do not hear wind or engine noise unless there is a sudden change in noise (like turning your head in the wind while wearing an open face helmet). I have attended board meetings while riding my motorcycle in another state and nobody was the wiser.
Flexibility and installation
They come with boom mics, stick on mics, and several different ways to attach the unit to the helmet. They all work. Last year rode my apex with the PTB attached via the glue on mounting plate with no issues. I was concerned about the cold affecting the glue but it didn't happen, the mounting plate stayed stuck and in fact is a pain to remove now that I am selling that helmet. This year I am using a clip-in bracket which feels a bit stronger. I have the mounting bracket/plate on 4 different helmets now (CKX Mission, BV2S, Schuberth C3 Pro, and an FXR) and there is always a way to get the system installed securely. All my units have the JBL speaker option which is a slightly larger diameter (45mm vs 40mm) and slightly thicker speaker than the standard model. As an audiophile I can say that the sound is 'acceptable' but everyone else in our group thinks they are great. On a bike they beat any bike mounted speakers that are trying to fight road noise, on the sled they can only be beat by having in ear monitors. Even though I own a lot of high-end IEMs I don't like wearing them on any vehicle because they isolate you too much from the world around you, its all about compromise. As far as installation goes, it typically takes me 10-30 minutes depending on the helmet and how much of a hurry I am to get them installed. The BV2S was a disaster of a helmet for comms integration. fog control - yep, but no way to really install the microphone in a reasonable way. The CKX Mission (like most of my other helmets) was easy to install and in my opinion, it is the best option out there for installing a communicator of any kind (have not tried, nor interested in Oxygen).
A properly positioned boom mic allows conversation with the face shield up or down
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The Best
Voice Commands/Control. The ability to say ‘Hey Cardo’ and change radio stations, skip tracks, turn volume up and down, etc while keeping both hands on the grips is fantastic. Where Cardo voice commands leave off, you can use phone commands directly (Hey Siri). Hey Siri, play my riding playlist. Hey Siri, whats the weather like in xxxxx. Hey Siri call work.. etc.. The voice control is really good although I do know one guy who has a thick southern accent that does not get consistent results. I keep telling him to speak English..
The JBL speaker tucks into an existing gap in the padding. There is an adhesive backed velcro pad that attaches to the foam in the helmet and the speaker has velcro on the back allowing easy adjustment. Mine fits well this way but if you have huge ears you may have to made some room behind the speaker.
Voice Commands/Control. The ability to say ‘Hey Cardo’ and change radio stations, skip tracks, turn volume up and down, etc while keeping both hands on the grips is fantastic. Where Cardo voice commands leave off, you can use phone commands directly (Hey Siri). Hey Siri, play my riding playlist. Hey Siri, whats the weather like in xxxxx. Hey Siri call work.. etc.. The voice control is really good although I do know one guy who has a thick southern accent that does not get consistent results. I keep telling him to speak English..
The JBL speaker tucks into an existing gap in the padding. There is an adhesive backed velcro pad that attaches to the foam in the helmet and the speaker has velcro on the back allowing easy adjustment. Mine fits well this way but if you have huge ears you may have to made some room behind the speaker.
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Range and real world experience
On an open road, fire road, field, etc the range is as advertised. Point to Point (just two riders) I would say 500 meters to 1 Kilometer is a reasonable expectation. If you get out of range you get a tone on disconnection and the system will automatically reconnect when it is back in range which is a good thing as I will explain in a second. If you are running more than 2 riders the range automatically extends as long as no single link in the chain of riders exceeds the point to point range. We have had riders strung out over a couple of kilometers, lets call that leading pack the blue machines and the ones trailing the yellow ones, this generally happens without any issues and just works. There are times however where the range can be impacted, sometimes severely. The operating frequencies of these units is in the 2.4Ghz range, the same general frequency as your home wifi but don’t try to compare the two as the way the frequency spectrum is used by communicators is very different than your wifi. The protocol that wifi utilizes (TCP/IP) prioritizes point to point data integrity and throughput (in that order) so it is full of redundancy and resiliency mechanisms. The protocol that BLE 4.x uses (Bluetooth Mesh) is designed for one to many communications (not 1:1) and throughput is based on very small chunks of data, perfect for low data bandwidth use (like group discussions). Where you can compare Wifi to Bluetooth is the fact that they both rely on 2.4x Ghz radios and those frequencies do not do handle moisture well at all with signal strength decreasing exponentially with the amount of water the signal has to punch through. On the one hand it can punch through a reasonable amount of trees and the like without problem, unless of course those trees are full of snow. Hmm. This problem is not cardo specific btw and in fact this is the time to point out that all these companies (uclear, cardo, sena, etc) do not invent chips that handle Bluetooth, they all use chipsets from the same few manufacturers so there is little difference in raw capabilities between the different brands. The main differences come in software both on the device and on the phone as well as how they design the device, tune it (antenna size/shape/location) and of course the general quality of materials and this is what you pay for (software/design/construction/features) and in general, the higher end units have higher end and more desirable features. That’s a long winded way of saying that the range problems are not cardo specific and in my experience with both cardo and sena the cardos are a bit better at handling range but what you are really paying for is software functionality.
Seen from behind and to the side, the cardo doesn't stick out too much and is easily accessible even with big gloves although for the most part you can do everything you want through voice commands.
On an open road, fire road, field, etc the range is as advertised. Point to Point (just two riders) I would say 500 meters to 1 Kilometer is a reasonable expectation. If you get out of range you get a tone on disconnection and the system will automatically reconnect when it is back in range which is a good thing as I will explain in a second. If you are running more than 2 riders the range automatically extends as long as no single link in the chain of riders exceeds the point to point range. We have had riders strung out over a couple of kilometers, lets call that leading pack the blue machines and the ones trailing the yellow ones, this generally happens without any issues and just works. There are times however where the range can be impacted, sometimes severely. The operating frequencies of these units is in the 2.4Ghz range, the same general frequency as your home wifi but don’t try to compare the two as the way the frequency spectrum is used by communicators is very different than your wifi. The protocol that wifi utilizes (TCP/IP) prioritizes point to point data integrity and throughput (in that order) so it is full of redundancy and resiliency mechanisms. The protocol that BLE 4.x uses (Bluetooth Mesh) is designed for one to many communications (not 1:1) and throughput is based on very small chunks of data, perfect for low data bandwidth use (like group discussions). Where you can compare Wifi to Bluetooth is the fact that they both rely on 2.4x Ghz radios and those frequencies do not do handle moisture well at all with signal strength decreasing exponentially with the amount of water the signal has to punch through. On the one hand it can punch through a reasonable amount of trees and the like without problem, unless of course those trees are full of snow. Hmm. This problem is not cardo specific btw and in fact this is the time to point out that all these companies (uclear, cardo, sena, etc) do not invent chips that handle Bluetooth, they all use chipsets from the same few manufacturers so there is little difference in raw capabilities between the different brands. The main differences come in software both on the device and on the phone as well as how they design the device, tune it (antenna size/shape/location) and of course the general quality of materials and this is what you pay for (software/design/construction/features) and in general, the higher end units have higher end and more desirable features. That’s a long winded way of saying that the range problems are not cardo specific and in my experience with both cardo and sena the cardos are a bit better at handling range but what you are really paying for is software functionality.
Seen from behind and to the side, the cardo doesn't stick out too much and is easily accessible even with big gloves although for the most part you can do everything you want through voice commands.
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What does this mean
In real world use cases (how we ride sleds) these communication devices for the most part work very well. There are times when your riding buddy is around the bend, over the hill or simply obscured by trees thick with snow that the system will temporarily cut out. The good news is that reconnecting is seamless, as soon as you clear the obstacle the system is back online. For this minor hiccup in connectivity, you gain a ton of general usefulness. I have gotten used to being connected this way and cannot imagine riding without. The number of times we ‘talk’ while riding just to communicate obstacles, oncoming riders, changing conditions, arranging stops, pointing out problems with each others machines (or riding technique) is amazing and it has become second nature.
The future, and the ideal solution
I have been providing feedback to cardo and sena for a few years. Cardo (in particular) has been very responsive to feedback and their customer support is pretty good (as is Senas). I have no real experience with Uclear although I hear the units work well. In my opinion however there is one big change that they (any brand) could make that would be a huge improvement which would be to combine Bluetooth technology with a MURS or GMRS radio. The advantage of MURS or GMRS/FRS radios is range. MURS in particular runs at a lower frequency so it has much better range in general riding conditions (out in the woods).
In real world use cases (how we ride sleds) these communication devices for the most part work very well. There are times when your riding buddy is around the bend, over the hill or simply obscured by trees thick with snow that the system will temporarily cut out. The good news is that reconnecting is seamless, as soon as you clear the obstacle the system is back online. For this minor hiccup in connectivity, you gain a ton of general usefulness. I have gotten used to being connected this way and cannot imagine riding without. The number of times we ‘talk’ while riding just to communicate obstacles, oncoming riders, changing conditions, arranging stops, pointing out problems with each others machines (or riding technique) is amazing and it has become second nature.
The future, and the ideal solution
I have been providing feedback to cardo and sena for a few years. Cardo (in particular) has been very responsive to feedback and their customer support is pretty good (as is Senas). I have no real experience with Uclear although I hear the units work well. In my opinion however there is one big change that they (any brand) could make that would be a huge improvement which would be to combine Bluetooth technology with a MURS or GMRS radio. The advantage of MURS or GMRS/FRS radios is range. MURS in particular runs at a lower frequency so it has much better range in general riding conditions (out in the woods).
Yamajon1
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Former Yamaha sleds:
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Very informative. Thanks for taking the time to post this.
DennyTuna
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Very well done earthling, Our group of 10 will be using the cardo packtalk bold going on our 3rd season of use. I was gonna do a similar write up but lack the intelligence of understanding a damn thing how these things work....lol. Most in our group also wear the mission helmet, this combination together is one sweet set up. My JBL speakers were a little tight on my ears so a little modification to the EPS foam and all is good. I will say I did learn a little more about the cardo from your write up and I thank you.
no problem. I am a computer nerd and general technologist so happy to help where I can.
sailor joe
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Thanks for the fantastic job of explaining on trail group communication, your knowledge is a valuable asset to the TY group. I learned allot, thanks Earthling. Joe
ateick
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Just came across this write up. Nicely done! I've been using a very inexpensive brand (Lexin) for a few years now with decent results. They do the job communicating with my son or wife but sound quality (especially for music - I ride solo alot) is abysmal. Been looking to change things up and these have been top of list.
A&Shuntr
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We ended up getting 3 Packtalk Edges to replace our worn out collets, sound is decent, thought it only lowers music volume when someone is talking instead of completely muting it but the biggest downside is after only 2.5 hours it is running out of battery juice... sucks big time!
Something is wrong, we can get 8 hours (packtalk bold) depending on our mix of constantly listening to music and harassing each other and temperature. There are many in our group using them, the worst we have had is about 6 hours for one of the units and he carries a battery pack in his pocket and plugs it in while riding.
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DennyTuna
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I agree, just returned home from 6 days of riding. Seven units (packtalk bold), everyone listens to music. Most units last at least 8 hours without a charge but we carry battery packs to put on a charge if needed. Music is muted when in conversation (which is most of the time with the knobs I ride with)....lol.
