Frostbite
TY 4 Stroke God
I tried posting this on the mountain side and no one answered so I thought I'd try to troll for some answers over here. The elevation I typically ride is 4-7,000 feet. Yesterdays escapades were at this altitiude. Mostly 5-6,000 feet.
I'm all over the place with my jetting with the ECP filters in the mountains. What have the rest of you found works best? Here's where I'm at. I know all of these things are affecting each other but I could sure use your experiences as a guide to point me in the right direction.
MAINS- I have tried most sizes from 156.3 (ran these at 6-8,000 ft) to 162.5 at 4-7,000 ft.
FUEL SCREWS- I have tried 1 1/4 to 1 3/4 turns out from lightly seated.
NEEDLES- I have tried the stock setting and one click richer than stock.
SPRINGS- I have tried the stock springs, the Holtzman Yellow and now the Holtzman Silver springs.
PILOTS- are still at the stock 17.5
To complicate things even further I have the Holtzman ATACC system on my sled. It SHOULD be compensating from about 3/8" throttle on up with the RX-1 and the vacuum operted carbs for elevation and temperatures. Frankly, below those settings is where I am having trouble. It's mainly with the throttle in the 1/3 to 1/2 range.
Here's what I have now with 165 mains, 17.5 nozzles, airscrews at 1 3/4 turns, needles one click richer than stock.
The sled idles ok when it decides to idle. Sometimes it just shuts itself off as soon as you let go of the throttle. My belts not squealing but it is way up there in the secondary and it MAY be dragging the RPM down with it. The sled seems to pull well from the upper midrange to top end.
It blubbers terribly below that. I nail the throttle and the labors through the blubbering and then pulls hard in the upper mid on up.
I have the SILVER Holtzman springs in now and I think I like the yellow better. With the silvers I have several flat spots in my carbueration that I never noticed with the yellow springs. I can be cruising down the trail at 8,000 rpm and I feel like I'm on one of the steps in the jerky progression in the carbueration. When I try to go up RPM it hesitiates then eventually moves up.
So, where to go from here.
Maybe needles back to stock?
I know the airscrews are going back to 1 1/4 turn. i think they are the biggest part of the problem right now at 1 3/4 turns.
Mains? I think I'll leave them and see what the other changes do to the low end since the top end seems to work OK.
Back to yellow holtzman springs? I should probably leave the Silvers in and see what the other changes do, although it's really tempting to try to fix it all at once.
Thanks for any help you may be able to provide. PB
_________________
I'm all over the place with my jetting with the ECP filters in the mountains. What have the rest of you found works best? Here's where I'm at. I know all of these things are affecting each other but I could sure use your experiences as a guide to point me in the right direction.
MAINS- I have tried most sizes from 156.3 (ran these at 6-8,000 ft) to 162.5 at 4-7,000 ft.
FUEL SCREWS- I have tried 1 1/4 to 1 3/4 turns out from lightly seated.
NEEDLES- I have tried the stock setting and one click richer than stock.
SPRINGS- I have tried the stock springs, the Holtzman Yellow and now the Holtzman Silver springs.
PILOTS- are still at the stock 17.5
To complicate things even further I have the Holtzman ATACC system on my sled. It SHOULD be compensating from about 3/8" throttle on up with the RX-1 and the vacuum operted carbs for elevation and temperatures. Frankly, below those settings is where I am having trouble. It's mainly with the throttle in the 1/3 to 1/2 range.
Here's what I have now with 165 mains, 17.5 nozzles, airscrews at 1 3/4 turns, needles one click richer than stock.
The sled idles ok when it decides to idle. Sometimes it just shuts itself off as soon as you let go of the throttle. My belts not squealing but it is way up there in the secondary and it MAY be dragging the RPM down with it. The sled seems to pull well from the upper midrange to top end.
It blubbers terribly below that. I nail the throttle and the labors through the blubbering and then pulls hard in the upper mid on up.
I have the SILVER Holtzman springs in now and I think I like the yellow better. With the silvers I have several flat spots in my carbueration that I never noticed with the yellow springs. I can be cruising down the trail at 8,000 rpm and I feel like I'm on one of the steps in the jerky progression in the carbueration. When I try to go up RPM it hesitiates then eventually moves up.
So, where to go from here.
Maybe needles back to stock?
I know the airscrews are going back to 1 1/4 turn. i think they are the biggest part of the problem right now at 1 3/4 turns.
Mains? I think I'll leave them and see what the other changes do to the low end since the top end seems to work OK.
Back to yellow holtzman springs? I should probably leave the Silvers in and see what the other changes do, although it's really tempting to try to fix it all at once.
Thanks for any help you may be able to provide. PB
_________________
1xr
Expert
With my sled in less elevation, up to 2000 feet. I had the burrble you speak of. What I did is this, first I move yhe needles full rich and took it away and made fuel economy poor and than i returned the needle to the stock position and turned out the fuel screw to 3.5 turns., works about the same. Fuel screws do make quit a difference. But I will say to get a jetting set up for these filters is about as difficult as getting a clutch combo to be right.
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
PB...don't take this the wrong way but you seem to be having the most problem out of everyone I have sold these air kits to. I am stating this to try and help you and not point blame, so please do not take it as an insult.
But...something else HAS to be amiss with your engine. Here is what I would do if I were you to end this once and for all. Take your sled down to 0-2000 foot elevations. Remove the ATACC just to know that it is not a source of your problems and INSTALL THE KIT WITH THE RECOMMENDED JETTING AND SETUP THAT I HAVE ALWAYS RECOMMENDED. Se if it runs correctly. If not, there is something else wrong with your sled.
Your statement of "I am all over the place with my jetting" is proof that something else is influencing your engines performance. You should put in the main jets and forget about them...end of story.
When we do testing of products wether they be my companies products and services or for another marketer, we realize that just because something didn't work the first try, this doesn't mean that the product doesn't work...it usually only means that something else needs to be changed to optimize the product or service. Now please listen to this following statement very, very closely and if you do not understand it, please go back a read it again until you do. When you change things as much as you have and you get no response, that means there is a "Governor" somewhere else. If you change jets more than let's say 3 times and there is no change or no change to your liking then, you need to stop changing jets and look for the source of the problem somewhere other than jetting.
Once again, please understand that these remarks although seem strongly worded, are being stated to help you. Good luck and hope this helps.
Freddie
But...something else HAS to be amiss with your engine. Here is what I would do if I were you to end this once and for all. Take your sled down to 0-2000 foot elevations. Remove the ATACC just to know that it is not a source of your problems and INSTALL THE KIT WITH THE RECOMMENDED JETTING AND SETUP THAT I HAVE ALWAYS RECOMMENDED. Se if it runs correctly. If not, there is something else wrong with your sled.
Your statement of "I am all over the place with my jetting" is proof that something else is influencing your engines performance. You should put in the main jets and forget about them...end of story.
When we do testing of products wether they be my companies products and services or for another marketer, we realize that just because something didn't work the first try, this doesn't mean that the product doesn't work...it usually only means that something else needs to be changed to optimize the product or service. Now please listen to this following statement very, very closely and if you do not understand it, please go back a read it again until you do. When you change things as much as you have and you get no response, that means there is a "Governor" somewhere else. If you change jets more than let's say 3 times and there is no change or no change to your liking then, you need to stop changing jets and look for the source of the problem somewhere other than jetting.
Once again, please understand that these remarks although seem strongly worded, are being stated to help you. Good luck and hope this helps.
Freddie
Frostbite
TY 4 Stroke God
Thank you 1XR. I have done nearly the same thing with the fuel screws and the needles. I feel like I'm back to square one as well, hence my asking for peoples experiences.
Super Tuner. Frankly your "tone" is exactly what I expected to see. It proves my point exactly.
Typically when one buys aftermarket products from a "Performance Shop" (and I use the term losely) we (I) expect to be provided with at least a semi well thought out set up instructions.
In this case there is ONE main jet recommendation for everyone from seal level to 12,000 feet? Do you really expect us to believe that this "one size fits all" approach is ideal for everyone? Yes, it's a four stroke and yaddy yaddy yaddy. Honestly I believe it's merley the best you could come up with in the time you elected to donate to this project? If you didn't understand that last statement I suggest you go back and read it until you do.
There is NO recommendation on needle position. You indicated you were going to do some testing on a number of different needles a month ago and still no results.
There is no reference to Fuel Screw changes however most have determined changes to the screw positions have made big changes in the way their sleds runs.
It's easy to blame all my problems on someone elses product. Yes, I unhooked the ATACC and ran the sled and it actually ran worse. So no, don't try to blame this one on Barry Holtzman.
I didn't come on here to be brow beaten by anyone. I honestly am asking for assistance not a lecture. It seems you are more than willing to provide the later.
In all honestly you have provided us with a wonderful product. It works well occassionally. I just want more consistant performance. My sled by far worked its best with the 156.3 mains installed. This flys in the face of your instructions and I was fearful that I was too lean and thought I'd try jetting up again.
Please don't take these words wrong. I sincerely hope this helps you. Have a nice day. PB
Super Tuner. Frankly your "tone" is exactly what I expected to see. It proves my point exactly.
Typically when one buys aftermarket products from a "Performance Shop" (and I use the term losely) we (I) expect to be provided with at least a semi well thought out set up instructions.
In this case there is ONE main jet recommendation for everyone from seal level to 12,000 feet? Do you really expect us to believe that this "one size fits all" approach is ideal for everyone? Yes, it's a four stroke and yaddy yaddy yaddy. Honestly I believe it's merley the best you could come up with in the time you elected to donate to this project? If you didn't understand that last statement I suggest you go back and read it until you do.
There is NO recommendation on needle position. You indicated you were going to do some testing on a number of different needles a month ago and still no results.
There is no reference to Fuel Screw changes however most have determined changes to the screw positions have made big changes in the way their sleds runs.
It's easy to blame all my problems on someone elses product. Yes, I unhooked the ATACC and ran the sled and it actually ran worse. So no, don't try to blame this one on Barry Holtzman.
I didn't come on here to be brow beaten by anyone. I honestly am asking for assistance not a lecture. It seems you are more than willing to provide the later.
In all honestly you have provided us with a wonderful product. It works well occassionally. I just want more consistant performance. My sled by far worked its best with the 156.3 mains installed. This flys in the face of your instructions and I was fearful that I was too lean and thought I'd try jetting up again.
Please don't take these words wrong. I sincerely hope this helps you. Have a nice day. PB
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
Powder Blue said:
PB...How would you have felt if I did not reply whatsoever on the subject? I answered to query as best as I know how. I do not have 12,000 foot elevations here to test in. Sorry. But I do know one thing...if it tests well at sea level or slightly higher, you will see gains regardless of elevation once the tuning is done.
I couldn't apologize enough for my ill received referenced "tone" beforehand. I sat at the computer and actually contemplated not sending in the reply but I figured my input would be conspicuous by its absence. I meant no disrespect by it...I am merely stating that I did want to try to help you and make suggestions to you that seem to make some sense.
The problem with the internet is that it difficult at best to show emotion. I truly am concerned with your problems and I sincerely want you happy. Once again, if it were me experiencing these problems, I would seriously take the advice given and go to sea level ar near sea level and see if the problem persists. If you care not to take my advice, so be it. Just trying to help.
Good luck.
Freddie
JayR
Veteran
PB -
I have the 165s in mine with the yellow springs and filters. Everything else is stock...fuel screw, pilots, needles, etc.
I ride at 5-6000 ft down here at tollgate mostly and the sled runs perfect. No hesitations or flat spots and the plugs are nice and tan.
maybe this helps.
Jason
I have the 165s in mine with the yellow springs and filters. Everything else is stock...fuel screw, pilots, needles, etc.
I ride at 5-6000 ft down here at tollgate mostly and the sled runs perfect. No hesitations or flat spots and the plugs are nice and tan.
maybe this helps.
Jason
I am one of four guys in our group that have EPC filter kits installed including the Holtzman springs. They all seem very responsive and very fast. They all suffer from the same problems. Noisy air intake and low top end.
We have tried most of the fixes sugusted on this sight. Non of which helped top end.
I put one of mine back to stock and picked up 8 to 10 MPH with a very slight loss in mid-range.
We have tried most of the fixes sugusted on this sight. Non of which helped top end.
I put one of mine back to stock and picked up 8 to 10 MPH with a very slight loss in mid-range.
Frostbite
TY 4 Stroke God
Now these are the types of responses I was looking for the first time around.
Based on the amount of PMs I have on this subject I'm certainly not the only one hoping for a little more direction on setting up these filters.
There are undeniably drivability issues induced by installing these kits that may or may not be visible (or present) on a dyno run. To be fair to Freddie SOME of the problems may be from everyone using different colored slide springs.
JayR, I want to ride with you. Isn't Tollgate a boondockers paridise? I will try putting the Yellow springs back in. Like I said in the earlier post they seemed to work much better at altitude than the silvers.
So, your fuel screws are at 1 1/4 turns out from lightly seated? Your needles are in the number 3 position? My low to midrange is horribly rich now. The time before this trip (before I moved the fuel screws to 1 3/4 turns) it burbled a little in the midrange but nothing like the way it fell on it's face with them out to 1 3/4 turns.
Misfit, thanks for the input. I have had the filters working wonderfully at times so I think I will continue to try to get the consistency I'm looking for out of them. You're right. There's always the ability to back to stock if I can't.
In my opinion it's a needle related issue (man, it sure seems like I've said this before). The taper is too steep.
Please keep the lessons learned coming guys. We can all learn from each others experiences. I'm most interested in the fuel screws (or nozzle changes) and needle positions found to be most advantageous. PB
Based on the amount of PMs I have on this subject I'm certainly not the only one hoping for a little more direction on setting up these filters.
There are undeniably drivability issues induced by installing these kits that may or may not be visible (or present) on a dyno run. To be fair to Freddie SOME of the problems may be from everyone using different colored slide springs.
JayR, I want to ride with you. Isn't Tollgate a boondockers paridise? I will try putting the Yellow springs back in. Like I said in the earlier post they seemed to work much better at altitude than the silvers.
So, your fuel screws are at 1 1/4 turns out from lightly seated? Your needles are in the number 3 position? My low to midrange is horribly rich now. The time before this trip (before I moved the fuel screws to 1 3/4 turns) it burbled a little in the midrange but nothing like the way it fell on it's face with them out to 1 3/4 turns.
Misfit, thanks for the input. I have had the filters working wonderfully at times so I think I will continue to try to get the consistency I'm looking for out of them. You're right. There's always the ability to back to stock if I can't.
In my opinion it's a needle related issue (man, it sure seems like I've said this before). The taper is too steep.
Please keep the lessons learned coming guys. We can all learn from each others experiences. I'm most interested in the fuel screws (or nozzle changes) and needle positions found to be most advantageous. PB
RTX Meirda
TY 4 Stroke Master
Misfit:
When you say top end....how far do you mean.
What mph were you seeing on the speedo with the filters installed....and what mph stock?
Silver springs?
Was testing done in the same conditions?
When you say top end....how far do you mean.
What mph were you seeing on the speedo with the filters installed....and what mph stock?
Silver springs?
Was testing done in the same conditions?
All sleds ran about the same. Top speed on a specific day was 104 to 106 on our gun.
Put mine back to stock. The sleds were all running about 104 on the gun and the stock sled ran 112 and 114 all on the same strip and the same day.
A friends high mileage warrior was running 122 stock except for a clutch kit.
Put mine back to stock. The sleds were all running about 104 on the gun and the stock sled ran 112 and 114 all on the same strip and the same day.
A friends high mileage warrior was running 122 stock except for a clutch kit.
MR.HAPPY
TY 4 Stroke Master
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I went from pulling hard up to 110-120 to 80-90 with filters & can not get it back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I gave up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BR
I gave up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BR
RTX Meirda
TY 4 Stroke Master
Misfit:
It is good to see that you are using a gun to compare the sleds.
Sometimes I wonder how people get their information.
I thought these filters would be very good in the top end ranges....did anyone take a proper plug reading to see if the jets looked fat or lean?
I have a set but have not installed them yet.... just wondering if it will be worth the trouble?
BRX-1....
What are you saying exactly.....stock worked better?
It is good to see that you are using a gun to compare the sleds.
Sometimes I wonder how people get their information.
I thought these filters would be very good in the top end ranges....did anyone take a proper plug reading to see if the jets looked fat or lean?
I have a set but have not installed them yet.... just wondering if it will be worth the trouble?
BRX-1....
What are you saying exactly.....stock worked better?
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
I am looking once again for that icon of SUPERTUNER shaking his head.
Jaymorr
Newbie
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2003
- Messages
- 24
Hey Misfit, take a look at your plug boots & terminals. I know on mine there was alot of arcing going on and a good amount of residue producing a loss of top end RPM. Not sure if it is the new plugs or the fact that the flap is no installed letting some snow dust into the recessed plug cavities. Just something to look. Clean them up and give them a try. 
Cubby's RX-1
VIP Member
And I am looking for an icon that has a gun to his head! Ok, first, who ever knows how to run a poll on this forum (I am a stupidhead when it comes to this computer stuff) please conduct a poll asking how many of us have used the ECP kit with good or bad results. Second- BRX-1, the kit worked and then it didnt work??? Did any and I mean any variable change? Like high octane fuel or weather or a new belt? How many miles are on the sled? You guys all know how much I love what these filters did to my sled but I wanna share a little story with you about this variable question of mine. I called the Fredster last week and told him I lost top end RPM and speed. He asked me the same question, what changes to the sled did I make. He also suggested something might be wrong with my clutching. I said I changed nothing at all except a new belt. The belt was the wrong size. I put my old belt back on and I was back running strong again. Here is another little story that Freddie will probably kill me for sharing. I was riding WOT one day for about 5 or so miles in real cold weather. Pulled a plug and it looked gray. I thought uh-oh, too lean. Yea too lean for a two stroke. So I got some 170 mains from Freddie anyways and put them in. The sled ran exactly the same, awesome, but my burble was back and a real strong burble too. I went back to the 165s and bye bye burble. So at least ON MY SLED,the burble is a rich condition and not a lean condition. Third, Powder Blue, I read this post over and over again about 3 times and I am still lookig for Freddies "tone" you noticed. All I see is Freddie trying to help you with his suggestions. This is why I want someone to do a poll, I put the kit in EXACTLY AS FREDDIE SAID and installed it as per the directions he supplied and it worked perfectly. No needle changes or pilot screw changes or anything, I installed just like the directions said. I am pretty sure I am not the only one on here that has had success with the filters. Having said all this I feel that Freddie is right and there is something else wrong with your sled. Or maybe your sled is just not going to work with this kit on it, which brings me to agree with Misfit, put it back to stock and just go ride it and enjoy the damn thing.
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