How to get 25 to 30 more HP out of 06 attack ?

[SledFreak]

I think you are all over estimating the power available from normally aspirated mods. I'd give you maybe 1 HP a piece with powercomander, airbox and pipe. another 10 for a cam and porting is being generous. I can out run a powercomander, airbox lid and piped sled with a true stock engine. I believe all of them combined won't give you 4 HP at the peak. That is my opinion. There only getting 175 out of the R1 which is spinning very high RPM's. Boost is cheapest and most reliable HP per dollar. I know, as I have worked with Ward Performance working up pricing and Pro-Stock style HP for the RX-1. Each copy of race engine was around $25,000 using my parts. I was not going to foot that type of bill. Yamaha didn't want to either. Boost it!

Mike, no disrepect, but Ulmer has gotten 163-165 from dynotech with the airlid, PCIII/ignition controller and a pipe sled and my sled kills a stocker. Not even close. Most guys that ran the Apex in the Soo i-500 snowmobile race all were runnig like 170-185hp and they don't have 25,000.00 into the motor either. The R-1 makes 185 with the RAM AIR and you are telling me that the street bike guys have not found any more hp than that. That's hard to believe. You also stated before that their was no gain to be had from exhaust. Dynotech says there is....

Sure Boost is an option, but it's 7 grand to get it installed from CPR. Reliable? A local guy I know blew his up 4 times on his rx-1. Not sure what heppend, but all he told me was make sure the fuel is good. His name was John Stach. Not sure if you know him or not. He is an average drag racer..

Also, there is maintenace to it, that most don't know about and you need good premium fuel, which is hard to find up here in Canada or the U.P for that matter.

 

[dirkdiggler]

Turbo's are hardly reliable. I had one and I will never have one again. There is a Laundry list of reasons why the biggest being every time I went out I was afraid I wasn't going to make it home.

If I boosted a trail sled it would be a Super Charger. You don't have to tap into the Oil system, Change the Stock exhaust, and they have instant throttle.

 

[BADSLED]

I think you are all over estimating the power available from normally aspirated mods. I'd give you maybe 1 HP a piece with powercomander, airbox and pipe. another 10 for a cam and porting is being generous. I can out run a powercomander, airbox lid and piped sled with a true stock engine. I believe all of them combined won't give you 4 HP at the peak. That is my opinion. There only getting 175 out of the R1 which is spinning very high RPM's. Boost is cheapest and most reliable HP per dollar. I know, as I have worked with Ward Performance working up pricing and Pro-Stock style HP for the RX-1. Each copy of race engine was around $25,000 using my parts. I was not going to foot that type of bill. Yamaha didn't want to either. Boost it!

Mike, no disrepect, but Ulmer has gotten 163-165 from dynotech with the airlid, PCIII/ignition controller and a pipe sled and my sled kills a stocker. Not even close. Most guys that ran the Apex in the Soo i-500 snowmobile race all were runnig like 170-185hp and they don't have 25,000.00 into the motor either. The R-1 makes 185 with the RAM AIR and you are telling me that the street bike guys have not found any more hp than that. That's hard to believe. You also stated before that their was no gain to be had from exhaust. Dynotech says there is....

Sure Boost is an option, but it's 7 grand to get it installed from CPR. Reliable? A local guy I know blew his up 4 times on his rx-1. Not sure what heppend, but all he told me was make sure the fuel is good. His name was John Stach. Not sure if you know him or not. He is an average drag racer..

Also, there is maintenace to it, that most don't know about and you need good premium fuel, which is hard to find up here in Canada or the U.P for that matter.

I'd like to see some dyno runs validating all these mods making this kind of power...

 

[KnappAttack]

I think you are all over estimating the power available from normally aspirated mods. I'd give you maybe 1 HP a piece with powercomander, airbox and pipe. another 10 for a cam and porting is being generous. I can out run a powercomander, airbox lid and piped sled with a true stock engine. I believe all of them combined won't give you 4 HP at the peak. That is my opinion. There only getting 175 out of the R1 which is spinning very high RPM's. Boost is cheapest and most reliable HP per dollar. I know, as I have worked with Ward Performance working up pricing and Pro-Stock style HP for the RX-1. Each copy of race engine was around $25,000 using my parts. I was not going to foot that type of bill. Yamaha didn't want to either. Boost it!

Mike, no disrepect, but Ulmer has gotten 163-165 from dynotech with the airlid, PCIII/ignition controller and a pipe sled and my sled kills a stocker. Not even close. Most guys that ran the Apex in the Soo i-500 snowmobile race all were runnig like 170-185hp and they don't have 25,000.00 into the motor either. The R-1 makes 185 with the RAM AIR and you are telling me that the street bike guys have not found any more hp than that. That's hard to believe. You also stated before that their was no gain to be had from exhaust. Dynotech says there is....

Sure Boost is an option, but it's 7 grand to get it installed from CPR. Reliable? A local guy I know blew his up 4 times on his rx-1. Not sure what heppend, but all he told me was make sure the fuel is good. His name was John Stach. Not sure if you know him or not. He is an average drag racer..

Also, there is maintenace to it, that most don't know about and you need good premium fuel, which is hard to find up here in Canada or the U.P for that matter.

Not being disrespectful either. Just being upfront and truthful. Believe what you want guys. If you think you have 165 HP, Great, but you'll never convince me. Sorry.

I've blown away other Apex's also, it is really dependant how bad the owner has them botched up with their mods and the state of tune they are in. Also, if they are fully broke in. Like I said they are real slugs when new.

I've seen the dyno sheet you speek of, and the stocker started out at 160 HP. Don't know why. That is a 3 HP increase with those items going from 160 to 163.

Dynotech shows a 1 HP gain with the pipe your talking about at peak, three in the mid. I have that dyno sheet too.

If there pushing 175-180 from the soo enduro sleds, then that is just plain pituful that they running against the 160 HP - 600cc two-stroke. I'd be looking pretty hard at those rules. I doubt very seriously they are making that kind of power.

Truthfully, the bike guys are not seeing big power gains either with simple mods. You have no idea how hard it is to pick up 5 HP. I have worked with Rick Ward on the dyno and know what it takes to pick up 5 HP. A pipe and programer is not getting it done either.

There is B.S. sales Horsepower, and there is REAL Horsepower.
REAL HP is VERY HARD to come by.
Dont be fooled by sales HP.

It was more than likely my old RX-1 trail sled that John Stach blew up 4 times. You have to be smarter than the machine you are working on! I put 750 miles on that machine on pump fuel (92 octane). You can't just add boost without adding octane. That sled made 210 HP on pump fuel @7.5 lbs. of boost all day long.
Boost is safe as long as you don't get greedy and push it to far.

 

[SledFreak]

Which ones. Just go to Ulmer's page and look under the "air box mod" post and you will see the 6 pages of information on the 163-165 from dynotech with the airlid, PCIII/ignition controller and Excel Exhaust.

The 170-185 were from the racers that were on their sleds in the race. I have not seen any dyno's, but these guys had no reasons to lie about it. Look what one it the past two years in a row. The fastest fully modded 2 stroke can't keep up with it down the straight aways. They literally get crushed. Hell the Apex was banned this year from the MIRA oavl circuit because they all complained that they were to fast and should be allowed. This was in the Pro classes. I heard Cory Davidson's sled is 170-175hp...

 

[mbarryracing]

In God we trust, all others must show data... Dyno sheets would be nice to see because 185HP naturally aspirated is a stretch for me without mega $$$$, but not saying it can't be done. I like to see data to back it up.

 

[SledFreak]

I think you are all over estimating the power available from normally aspirated mods. I'd give you maybe 1 HP a piece with powercomander, airbox and pipe. another 10 for a cam and porting is being generous. I can out run a powercomander, airbox lid and piped sled with a true stock engine. I believe all of them combined won't give you 4 HP at the peak. That is my opinion. There only getting 175 out of the R1 which is spinning very high RPM's. Boost is cheapest and most reliable HP per dollar. I know, as I have worked with Ward Performance working up pricing and Pro-Stock style HP for the RX-1. Each copy of race engine was around $25,000 using my parts. I was not going to foot that type of bill. Yamaha didn't want to either. Boost it!

Mike, no disrepect, but Ulmer has gotten 163-165 from dynotech with the airlid, PCIII/ignition controller and a pipe sled and my sled kills a stocker. Not even close. Most guys that ran the Apex in the Soo i-500 snowmobile race all were runnig like 170-185hp and they don't have 25,000.00 into the motor either. The R-1 makes 185 with the RAM AIR and you are telling me that the street bike guys have not found any more hp than that. That's hard to believe. You also stated before that their was no gain to be had from exhaust. Dynotech says there is....

Sure Boost is an option, but it's 7 grand to get it installed from CPR. Reliable? A local guy I know blew his up 4 times on his rx-1. Not sure what heppend, but all he told me was make sure the fuel is good. His name was John Stach. Not sure if you know him or not. He is an average drag racer..

Also, there is maintenace to it, that most don't know about and you need good premium fuel, which is hard to find up here in Canada or the U.P for that matter.

Not being disrespectful either. Just being upfront and truthful. Believe what you want guys. If you think you have 165 HP, Great, but you'll never convince me. Sorry.

I've blown away other Apex's also, it is really dependant how bad the owner has them botched up with their mods and the state of tune they are in. Also, if they are fully broke in. Like I said they are real slugs when new.

I've seen the dyno sheet you speek of, and the stocker started out at 160 HP. Don't know why. That is a 3 HP increase with those items going from 160 to 163.

Dynotech shows a 1 HP gain with the pipe your talking about at peak, three in the mid. I have that dyno sheet too.

If there pushing 175-180 from the soo enduro sleds, then that is just plain pituful that they running against the 160 HP - 600cc two-stroke. I'd be looking pretty hard at those rules. I doubt very seriously they are making that kind of power.

Truthfully, the bike guys are not seeing big power gains either with simple mods. You have no idea how hard it is to pick up 5 HP. I have worked with Rick Ward on the dyno and know what it takes to pick up 5 HP. A pipe and programer is not getting it done either.

There is B.S. sales Horsepower, and there is REAL Horsepower.
REAL HP is VERY HARD to come by.
Dont be fooled by sales HP.

It was more than likely my old RX-1 trail sled that John Stach blew up 4 times. You have to be smarter than the machine you are working on! I put 750 miles on that machine on pump fuel (92 octane). You can't just add boost without adding octane. That sled made 210 HP on pump fuel @7.5 lbs. of boost all day long.
Boost is safe as long as you don't get greedy and push it to far.

Mike, I never said he was smart, but he does no a few things.... Yes, he was playing with the boost, but it still blew up and CPR told him it could run on 91 and for some reason it did not. Don't shoot the messanger... That was 2 years ago and he has figured it all out now.

I have NOT seen a stock fully broke in Apex make 160hp. That seems a bit high. I have seen 153hp from dynotech broke-in and 149 new and have heard they make 2-5 more on break-in. Yes the Excel is 1-2hp on peak and 5hp mid range.

 

[mbarryracing]

SledFreak and Mike,

supposed 160 HP on a stock Apex, does that mean with stock airbox and exhaust, etc? Wow.
I've never seen that. I would probably question the load cell calibration on the dyno?
But I learn something new every day...

 

[SledFreak]

Mike, So you are saying that there are no products out there that make power, besides, Turbo, NOS or Supercharger?

 

[dirkdiggler]

It's a fact that the Bike makes 180HP. That comes from Yamaha Directly.

 

[87gtNOS]

It's a fact that the Bike makes 180HP. That comes from Yamaha Directly.

This may be true but there are some limiting factors to the sled head.
The bike has a much better throttle body to intake port (let's call it) angle, it also revs a good 3000rpm more and uses different cams to accomodate the flow requirements at 14000 (or whatever it is) rpm. These of all which are limiting factors in the sled's head.

And btw...I have rode all R1's from 01 to 07's....they are absolutely GUTLESS below 8000rpm!!!

 

[dirkdiggler]

It's a fact that the Bike makes 180HP. That comes from Yamaha Directly.

This may be true but there are some limiting factors to the sled head.
The bike has a much better throttle body to intake port (let's call it) angle, it also revs a good 3000rpm more and uses different cams to accomodate the flow requirements at 14000 (or whatever it is) rpm. These of all which are limiting factors in the sled's head.

And btw...I have rode all R1's from 01 to 07's....they are absolutely GUTLESS below 8000rpm!!!

The point is it's been claimed that you can't get good power out of these motors without using a power adder. That's all.

 

[KnappAttack]

Mike, So you are saying that there are no products out there that make power, besides, Turbo, NOS or Supercharger?

Yep, that is pretty much what I'm saying. It takes BMEP, (cyl. pressure) and RPM to make power). The little bolt ons being sold don't add squat in my opinion. Programers, Airbox lids, pipes. ect. Add very little, if anything, to these Apex engines. I don't count a couple HP anything for what is being spent on them. My stock Attak can out run a Apex that was at a well known performance shop, and the owner put over $1200 into it and it was claimed to be the quickest he had done to date, by anywhere from 2-6 lengths in a drag race, depending on traction. It has been to this performance shop 3 times already too. I can't imagine spending over $1200 to get beat by a stocker.

If its not being hot rodded as a package, it won't be making much more power.
1-More compession
2-More airflow thru head
3-Bigger valves
4-Larger throttle bodies
5-Wilder cams
6-Larger exhaust
7-More RPM
8-Time on the dyno
It takes all these things to make more actual power. I needs to be done by an actual engine builder that knows his stuff, and its EXPENSIVE!

Without it, you still have a stock engine with the bolt on stuff. Its like pissing in the wind. It can blow back on you.

Boost is still the best HP per dollar.

 

[Iceman57]

Over the weekend, I had time to finally test my mods in a step by step add on to see what each acheived in top end performance.
I used a snow covered plowed forest road, 1/3 mile run for my test area.
all speeds verified with gps

first run all- stock 108mph
second run- air box mod 109mph
third run-air box mod with ram air 110mph

Switched exhaust to sno stuff rumble pack
first run with exhaust mod- 110mph
second run with ram air box and exhaust mod- 113mph
third run with ram air, exhaust mod, pc111 and ignition mod 118mph

With $1300.00 spent so far, you can see how much I have gained or not. Each mod had some effect on my top end speeds. All runs were a easy start to about 40 mph then to full throttle as I have only 96 studs.
I did not lower my sled or suspension or remove my shaper bars. if I had done this, I may have seen another 2-3mph. But this was done with a trail sled setup, stock clutch, and shimmed secondary with new 8dn belt.
I also have not installed my 23t gear as I did not have the time.
I hope this test, answers alot of questions as to what do you gain with these mods? We all ask, now I hope I have given some answers to this.
Also, I weigh 280 pounds!

What about this post!!!!!!!

 

[SledFreak]

Oh yes, I do remember when dude did that test. Well, there's your answer. Maybe the dyno does not prove to be the bible, eh.