How to get 25 to 30 more HP out of 06 attack ?

[Dano]

 

[87gtNOS]

It's a fact that the Bike makes 180HP. That comes from Yamaha Directly.

This may be true but there are some limiting factors to the sled head.
The bike has a much better throttle body to intake port (let's call it) angle, it also revs a good 3000rpm more and uses different cams to accomodate the flow requirements at 14000 (or whatever it is) rpm. These of all which are limiting factors in the sled's head.

And btw...I have rode all R1's from 01 to 07's....they are absolutely GUTLESS below 8000rpm!!!

The point is it's been claimed that you can't get good power out of these motors without using a power adder. That's all.

You can't!!! They are not the same motors!!!! They are VERY different, although the R1 up to 2003 was similar, but the heads are TOTALLY different!!! That's all.

 

[GotJuice]

horse power is hard to come by

I agree with what both of you are saying but also know that I've built small blocks that made big horse power when the local well known racing shops said it would NEVER work. Mr.Knapp with all your experience you should know this rule first and fore most! Secondly there's no replacement for displacement, if you want NA H.P. then go to a bigger bore and longer stroke or realistically your only going to gain 25 h.p. from cam,shaved head,porting & good tuning with more timing and free flowing exhaust. Some guys have had Fundy Powersports do there motors and have nothing good to say and others are quite happy. Maybe Fundy can show some dyno sheets to prove his trail set up and then go from there. Yamaha's stock R-1 bike makes more 180 H.P. by spinning more RPMS and a little different cams, that's not to say you can't improve on the cams and porting for even more H.p. because there are bike builders doing it! Again with all your experience you should not to ever put H.P. in such a closed box!

 

[kviper]

Re: horse power is hard to come by

I agree with what both of you are saying but also know that I've built small blocks that made big horse power when the local well known racing shops said it would NEVER work. Mr.Knapp with all your experience you should know this rule first and fore most! Secondly there's no replacement for displacement, if you want NA H.P. then go to a bigger bore and longer stroke or realistically your only going to gain 25 h.p. from cam,shaved head,porting & good tuning with more timing and free flowing exhaust. Some guys have had Fundy Powersports do there motors and have nothing good to say and others are quite happy. Maybe Fundy can show some dyno sheets to prove his trail set up and then go from there. Yamaha's stock R-1 bike makes more 180 H.P. by spinning more RPMS and a little different cams, that's not to say you can't improve on the cams and porting for even more H.p. because there are bike builders doing it! Again with all your experience you should not to ever put H.P. in such a closed box!

No replacement for displacement, I think most of us in here understand this however no one said anything about big bore kit's.I think Mikes point of these HP number's is they can only be had by cam's porting and much higher RPM. This combination would make for a very big slug out of the hole combined with a snomobile type clutching system not to mention the longevity of the clutches at this RPM. Not accusing any one of any thing but in my 34 years of sleding i have seen many number's stretched to sell. Point is at stock displacment and RPM it will be next to inpossible to add 15 HP with bolt on's unless you go force fed or the bottle. kviper

 

[wagmtrspts]

Okay I have a couple of question for Mike and SledFreak what is the fastest both of you have gone in a 1000' in a speed run on your sleds. This must have been in a timed system not a radar gun on ice. The second is for Mike, how come you don't come out to any of the NSSR/CMSA events and run since you live in MN, now that it is under new ownership. They are the only place to run a four stroke and set ISR world records and here they are. No one has set the Four stroke Stock record yet.

FOUR STROKE Improved Stock
Shanon Disch 138.019 2004 Warrior Yamaha 2/23/2008
FOUR STROKE PRO STOCK
Jack Henricks 153.191 RX1/CPR Yamaha 2/23/2008
FOUR STROKE STOCK (3CYL)
Jack Henricks 98.181 2008 Nytro Yamaha 2/23/2008

www.racenssr.com

 

[dirkdiggler]

Okay I have a couple of question for Mike and SledFreak what is the fastest both of you have gone in a 1000' in a speed run on your sleds. This must have been in a timed system not a radar gun on ice. The second is for Mike, how come you don't come out to any of the NSSR/CMSA events and run since you live in MN, now that it is under new ownership. They are the only place to run a four stroke and set ISR world records and here they are. No one has set the Four stroke Stock record yet.

FOUR STROKE Improved Stock
Shanon Disch 138.019 2004 Warrior Yamaha 2/23/2008
FOUR STROKE PRO STOCK
Jack Henricks 153.191 RX1/CPR Yamaha 2/23/2008
FOUR STROKE STOCK (3CYL)
Jack Henricks 98.181 2008 Nytro Yamaha 2/23/2008

www.racenssr.com

If you are Jack Hendricks where were you on Saturday? You where missed on Big Bay.

 

[wagmtrspts]

No I am not Jack, I help bring back NSSR/CMSA a few years ago. I sat in on some of the first rules meetings and still race in it now. It was taken over this past winter by Ron Bray of Bray Racing and he has been more than welcome to the opening up to the four Strokes. Our Apex runs consistenly runs 110-112 MPH in 1000' Naturally Asperated.

Hank

 

[SledFreak]

Okay I have a couple of question for Mike and SledFreak what is the fastest both of you have gone in a 1000' in a speed run on your sleds. This must have been in a timed system not a radar gun on ice. The second is for Mike, how come you don't come out to any of the NSSR/CMSA events and run since you live in MN, now that it is under new ownership. They are the only place to run a four stroke and set ISR world records and here they are. No one has set the Four stroke Stock record yet.

FOUR STROKE Improved Stock
Shanon Disch 138.019 2004 Warrior Yamaha 2/23/2008
FOUR STROKE PRO STOCK
Jack Henricks 153.191 RX1/CPR Yamaha 2/23/2008
FOUR STROKE STOCK (3CYL)
Jack Henricks 98.181 2008 Nytro Yamaha 2/23/2008

www.racenssr.com

What does going fast in a 1000ft have to with what mods make a sled go fast? Sorry, but I don't have timing lights at my convience.

 

[lowboy]

well gentelmen i do have 3 of fundys ported head and cams set ups if anybody wants to buy this stuff e mail me i have the fundy funny dyno sheets and all more then willing to part with this waste of metal not to mention the waste of MONEY and time was told promise 180 hp time frame was to be ready for beg. of december got part of the stuff in march wrong cams they were off a r1 street bike had to alter ignition to make work but hey sent him all brand new apex stuff now try to make this thing work now remember compl. bolt in even had his own personnel unit clutching fuel controller etc. out to yhe lake could not run with a stocker played phone tag with this clown for over a year even took unit to dyno shop 6 pulls with his stuff and all it made 152 hp. at 10.100 rpms need i say more now trying to get some help or payment know he tells me that i must travel half way across canada to get it to work but hey at the beginningit was simple bolt on and hang on know thats customer satisfaction he won,t even return a phone call but sure took the money

 

[wagmtrspts]

SledFreak from what I have seen at speed runs the average Apex in stock form no mods will run 99-101 MPH maybe 102 in 1000' on a good timming system. The ones that have most of the normal mods air box, gears, exahust, clutching, and some type of fuel excelorator and timming controler run 105-106 maybe 107. The reason we run 110-112 is we have a speed track and a Whal suspension in ours with the nornmal mods, air box, gears, clutch exhaust and fuel and timming mods. It is at its limits for what it can do with out redoing the engine and making more HP. but the reason I said what I did is no one including you and Mike have given any real speed that you are running with you sleds. RTX DUDES post was spot on for his gains in 1/3 mile. I have watched Mike run his stuff on the asphault before and he was the fasted around at the time he does know what he is talking about I just believe you both are going about it from two different directions.

Hank

 

[SledFreak]

My sled is far from setup for ice drags or radar runs. I only trail ride with it and go to the local snow drag race. All, I know is that all the changes you have is what I have minus the speed track and skid. I know they work in the real world conditions. We were just dicussing what makes true hp and what doesn't. I also have the what RTX dude has and then some.

 

[mbarryracing]

I can't dispute that bolt on mods work to some degree, and that you can get a 10% power increase with the right combination. Those of you who already have it, know it... and you know if it is faster or not.
But to get 20% power increase you are spending some big $$$ on motor work, parts, and lots of tuning.

lowboy, I can only imagine what all that cost you.

When Mike is alluding to by the most improvement for your buck, boosting for the trail will get you 80% increase in power for the same or less cost that you'd spend trying to get 20% naturally aspirated.
As for boosted speeds, check out the latest SnowGoer where a stage 2 Apex at the December shootout posted a 1000 ft time (on lights) of 8.7 sec and 112 MPH in pure trail form, running in a field on Woodgate NY poohdunk gas station 93 pump gas.

Yes there is a sanctioned race class need for staying with naturally aspiration... and hence the drive to develop 180HP. But for trail, why would you want an difficult 20% increase when you could have an easy 80%?
That is just the point we were trying to make...

 

[FASTSLED]

pro stock

I think you are all over estimating the power available from normally aspirated mods. I'd give you maybe 1 HP a piece with powercomander, airbox and pipe. another 10 for a cam and porting is being generous. I can out run a powercomander, airbox lid and piped sled with a true stock engine. I believe all of them combined won't give you 4 HP at the peak. That is my opinion. There only getting 175 out of the R1 which is spinning very high RPM's. Boost is cheapest and most reliable HP per dollar. I know, as I have worked with Ward Performance working up pricing and Pro-Stock style HP for the RX-1. Each copy of race engine was around $25,000 using my parts. I was not going to foot that type of bill. Yamaha didn't want to either. Boost it!

mike is correct before i built a few turbo sleds talk to graves motorsports gp guys... told me 10K to 15k to built a 200 hp motor made my choice easy

 

[KnappAttack]

Okay I have a couple of question for Mike and SledFreak what is the fastest both of you have gone in a 1000' in a speed run on your sleds. This must have been in a timed system not a radar gun on ice. The second is for Mike, how come you don't come out to any of the NSSR/CMSA events and run since you live in MN, now that it is under new ownership. They are the only place to run a four stroke and set ISR world records and here they are. No one has set the Four stroke Stock record yet.

FOUR STROKE Improved Stock
Shanon Disch 138.019 2004 Warrior Yamaha 2/23/2008
FOUR STROKE PRO STOCK
Jack Henricks 153.191 RX1/CPR Yamaha 2/23/2008
FOUR STROKE STOCK (3CYL)
Jack Henricks 98.181 2008 Nytro Yamaha 2/23/2008

www.racenssr.com

wagmtrsports,
I have no desire to be racing anymore. Especially speed runs. It is like watching paint dry. I have raced snowmobiles since 1981 till 2003 and have amassed many records and wins. Not many can say they made money racing snowmobiles. I have gotten very sick of the politics involved with snowmobile racing and it continues to get worse. I no longer have anything left to prove, and the money is not there as it was in its heyday. Now I find myself making up for lost time with the family and riding the trails like a teenager again.

I'm not here to knock anyone, or their ideas. Especially Fundy. I believe they are doing a good job proving their stuff. If anything, I would say they are on the right track with their engine work. That is what it takes to make added power is the whole engine package. But it takes serious money to add power when going this route. This is why boost is easier and cheaper.

I will say it again thought that the baubles and bolt on stuff is peanuts for power gains. Some really believe that it’s gaining 15 HP or even 10 HP are in for a rude awakening. It’s more like 3-4 for real HP gain at best. For what that costs just wouldn't seem worth it to me. The four strokes just won't pick up power as a two-stroke does without boost.

I can take any 800 stock two-stroke, and give it 10 more HP and run it in the stock class in less than 2 hours just by leaning it out and jacking ignition timing to it. Don't try to run it on the trail though. The four-stroke just doesn't respond like that. That is why they run in the 600 and 700 class and get beat, yet on the trail the four strokes will beat the 1000 two-strokes.

Fastsled has it correct: 200 HP was going to run $15,000. I was looking more for 230-240 Real HP from a 1000cc's. That is big money and you might get four or five 1/4 mile runs from an engine that highly stressed. We were looking for over 15,000 RPM.

 

[insane]

Sorry to hyjack this thread, but has anyone had success with a supercharged trail sled? I have heard a bunch of horror stories about fuel ecconomy, dependability. Please direct me to a place to answer these questions (hopefully in this forum). Thanks guys.