I rode three Vipers today at the Elmira, MI test ride. They had 129, 137, & 141" versions there and we got to ride each one for a little over two miles. Surely not enough to really learn what the sled could do, but I did what I could to put them through their paces without getting into too much trouble.
The first thing I noticed was the poor (by Yamaha's standards) fit and finish. This was fully expected though, and fit and finish doesn't necessarily make a sled perform, so I didn't put too much thought into it.
We got rolling and I stabbed the throttle as soon as I could, and boy was I underwhelmed. I ride an Apex XTX regularly, but have ridden Nytros and was always impressed by their low end through mid-range power. This Viper felt like it had a carbed Vector motor in need of a tune up. Now the engineer on hand warned us ahead of time that the clutching and mapping on these sleds were preliminary and the cause of the lack of power and stalling. He stated that the sleds currently under review by the magazines had a better tune and were on par with the Nytros, but they just didn't have time to get these demo sleds updated. Excuse? Maybe, maybe not.
I wasn't really riding the sled for the power anyways. I wanted to see what the handling of this chassis was all about. During our stand in line (a long one), the engineer talked to us about how the weight distribution was shifted significantly and this sled would understeer rather than oversteer like the Nytro. I found his description to be right on the money. What is being renouned as "flat handling" seems to come primarily from the understeer, the sled pushes in the corners like crazy. Sure, both skis stayed on the ground most of the time, but the few times I got it to really bite in a corner the inside ski pops right up, just like any other tall sled I've ever ridden. Swerving from side to side on a straight trail also picks up a ski with very little effort.
Ski lift has never bothered me much. I am an active rider and find it fun to throw my weight around. That being said, I prefer the additional bite and more predictable ski lift of a sled that will oversteer. The "SRV" chassis, as setup today, is not my cup of tea in the handling department. Obviously this would be tuneable to my likings, but I don't feel at all like it is the breakthrough in handling that it has been touted as.
The other thing I was excited to try was the rear suspension, but to my dissapointment there was not a decent bump to be found on the trails. By previous reviews, I'm sure this is a great skid. I never got a chance to see it shine though. Transfer must have also been adjusted way down because the sled really struggled to get the skis even an inch or two off the snow. Probably one of the reasons it felt so slow.
After the 141 I moved onto the 137, and finally the 129, and found the performance to get progressively worse (from an acceleration standpoint).
Overall I would break it down like this:
Positives
-Light steeing (lighter than Nytro, but not as light as Yami EPS)
-Super comfortable position, ergos are great.
-Underhood heat from the front exhaust is vented right to your legs and feet, keeping them nice and warm.
Negatives
-Fit and finish
-Lacking power big time, these things are just slow (at least the demo sleds)
-Gauges are terrible
-AC throttle and brake system are sub par
-Sounds awful (purely subjective and a matter of opinion, but had to mention it)
Neutrals
-Handling
-Ride quality and big bump capability (neutral because I didn't really get to evaluate).
Could be a fun sled? Yes
Way better than a Yamaha chassis? No
In general, I left with a feeling that people may be drinking too much of the Hype flavored Kool-Aid.
The first thing I noticed was the poor (by Yamaha's standards) fit and finish. This was fully expected though, and fit and finish doesn't necessarily make a sled perform, so I didn't put too much thought into it.
We got rolling and I stabbed the throttle as soon as I could, and boy was I underwhelmed. I ride an Apex XTX regularly, but have ridden Nytros and was always impressed by their low end through mid-range power. This Viper felt like it had a carbed Vector motor in need of a tune up. Now the engineer on hand warned us ahead of time that the clutching and mapping on these sleds were preliminary and the cause of the lack of power and stalling. He stated that the sleds currently under review by the magazines had a better tune and were on par with the Nytros, but they just didn't have time to get these demo sleds updated. Excuse? Maybe, maybe not.
I wasn't really riding the sled for the power anyways. I wanted to see what the handling of this chassis was all about. During our stand in line (a long one), the engineer talked to us about how the weight distribution was shifted significantly and this sled would understeer rather than oversteer like the Nytro. I found his description to be right on the money. What is being renouned as "flat handling" seems to come primarily from the understeer, the sled pushes in the corners like crazy. Sure, both skis stayed on the ground most of the time, but the few times I got it to really bite in a corner the inside ski pops right up, just like any other tall sled I've ever ridden. Swerving from side to side on a straight trail also picks up a ski with very little effort.
Ski lift has never bothered me much. I am an active rider and find it fun to throw my weight around. That being said, I prefer the additional bite and more predictable ski lift of a sled that will oversteer. The "SRV" chassis, as setup today, is not my cup of tea in the handling department. Obviously this would be tuneable to my likings, but I don't feel at all like it is the breakthrough in handling that it has been touted as.
The other thing I was excited to try was the rear suspension, but to my dissapointment there was not a decent bump to be found on the trails. By previous reviews, I'm sure this is a great skid. I never got a chance to see it shine though. Transfer must have also been adjusted way down because the sled really struggled to get the skis even an inch or two off the snow. Probably one of the reasons it felt so slow.
After the 141 I moved onto the 137, and finally the 129, and found the performance to get progressively worse (from an acceleration standpoint).
Overall I would break it down like this:
Positives
-Light steeing (lighter than Nytro, but not as light as Yami EPS)
-Super comfortable position, ergos are great.
-Underhood heat from the front exhaust is vented right to your legs and feet, keeping them nice and warm.
Negatives
-Fit and finish
-Lacking power big time, these things are just slow (at least the demo sleds)
-Gauges are terrible
-AC throttle and brake system are sub par
-Sounds awful (purely subjective and a matter of opinion, but had to mention it)
Neutrals
-Handling
-Ride quality and big bump capability (neutral because I didn't really get to evaluate).
Could be a fun sled? Yes
Way better than a Yamaha chassis? No
In general, I left with a feeling that people may be drinking too much of the Hype flavored Kool-Aid.
blueironranger
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I'd say your review is fairly close to my feeling about the test ride I had today except we got to experiance them on a a few miles of lake along with a few miles of moderate to NASTY stutters/moguls. I got to ride the 141" with the uncoupled skid. The first thing I noticed was the power, after just riding my Phazer 100miles to get to the demo you notice the extra power BUT I was expecting more, from 0-60 it felt like my Phazer would have run with it, definately had good pull past 60mph where my phazer gets lazy and manged to get past 80 pretty quick. The Front "felt" light but no mater how hard I tried I couldn't get lift the skis up to prepare for the next bump where as a quick blip of the throttle will pop the skis on my Phazer. It didn't seem to handle the mogals as well as I had expected either but to be fair the 141" is an uncoupled skid which really isn't a "big bump" design. I ran my Phazer through the same stretch and it definately outperformed the Viper through the nasty stuff BUT my phazer is well setup for that stuff. On to the inside ski lift, there is NONE but I also noticed it had a tendancy to push in the corners which I don't know if its caused by setup, the Skis, or 141" without tip ups. I do know that I definately liked it better than the Nytro I demoed before I purchased my phazer a few years ago.
Grimm
TY 4 Stroke God
Boy, I've never heard so many "underwhelming" comments regarding test drives on a new release sled.
If these prototype sleds are any indication of what to expect on the snow next year, then the Viper will be a FAIL in my books, and an embarrassment for Yamaha.
If these prototype sleds are any indication of what to expect on the snow next year, then the Viper will be a FAIL in my books, and an embarrassment for Yamaha.
studdog
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Thanks for the review. I was set to order one but the overall reviews and high price have changed my mind.
Dano
TY 4 Stroke Master
I'm really not sure what's going on with the mapping and how it's said to be not ready or final. Is this because the mapping is handed over to Cat to map and the new exhaust requires a big difference to the Nytro which had bang on mapping for 6 years now?
It's great to have demo rides, but if I were to put on a demo ride, I would put my best foot forward and have the mapping done.
I rode my nytro to a cat demo ride and jumped on the Viper equivalent, the ZR 7000 sno pro 128. Got a good feel for difference and I do prefer the ZR over my Nytro in pretty much every aspect. Hard to tell in power difference as I only rode a 128 and my nytro is the 144 so nytro had the get up and go for traction where the ZR would have a better feel with a bit longer track. Raced the ZR 7000 against the new cat 600 (6000) ctec and the 7000 had an edge all the way through. Not yet sure where the new 600 cat ranks, but it was a good little lightweight buzzer.
I loved the front exhaust and the clean tunnel which would cure the ice build up issue. Regardless of weight claims, it will be at least 30lbs less weight with much less slush and ice build up. Ride and handling was more natural on the ZR where the seating position was more versatile. Guages are much more informative on the ZR when compaired to Nytro gauge, its a big plus. I also own a new 13 XS X doo and only use the digital gauges so having a big digital speedo, tach and clock is a big plus imo. Overall I think it will be a success for its intended market. At this point, I don't think anyone has a warm fuzzy feeling when looking at the extras such as the chain case. What is improved and changed to the plagued Cat issues? It's not enough to just tell us "it's improved" without telling us how well it was improved and what was changed. Cats track record now comes in Blue without disclosing how much influence Yamaha played in the improving of past "cat" problems.
The Jury's out and I'm willing to bet this will be a success for its intended market.
Dan
It's great to have demo rides, but if I were to put on a demo ride, I would put my best foot forward and have the mapping done.
I rode my nytro to a cat demo ride and jumped on the Viper equivalent, the ZR 7000 sno pro 128. Got a good feel for difference and I do prefer the ZR over my Nytro in pretty much every aspect. Hard to tell in power difference as I only rode a 128 and my nytro is the 144 so nytro had the get up and go for traction where the ZR would have a better feel with a bit longer track. Raced the ZR 7000 against the new cat 600 (6000) ctec and the 7000 had an edge all the way through. Not yet sure where the new 600 cat ranks, but it was a good little lightweight buzzer.
I loved the front exhaust and the clean tunnel which would cure the ice build up issue. Regardless of weight claims, it will be at least 30lbs less weight with much less slush and ice build up. Ride and handling was more natural on the ZR where the seating position was more versatile. Guages are much more informative on the ZR when compaired to Nytro gauge, its a big plus. I also own a new 13 XS X doo and only use the digital gauges so having a big digital speedo, tach and clock is a big plus imo. Overall I think it will be a success for its intended market. At this point, I don't think anyone has a warm fuzzy feeling when looking at the extras such as the chain case. What is improved and changed to the plagued Cat issues? It's not enough to just tell us "it's improved" without telling us how well it was improved and what was changed. Cats track record now comes in Blue without disclosing how much influence Yamaha played in the improving of past "cat" problems.
The Jury's out and I'm willing to bet this will be a success for its intended market.
Dan
ROCKERDAN
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^^Nice writeup Dano!
Alatalo
TY 4 Stroke Master
Great review, but having the above statement repeated by almost everybody that had a test ride is making me seriously worried.Master of Faster said:
The wide powerband of the Nytro mill is user friendly from a fueling as well as clutching point of view. Simply put - it would take an idiot to not get fueling and clutching at least in the ballpark so that a demo sled does not stall or gets slagged off as being underpowered. I am worried there is something much deeper going on here and I would say the engineers "we are still working on it" is pure bullshite...! Come on...! First, why disappoint every potential customer by demoing sleds that stall and under-perform...? Second, production is only couple of weeks away. When are you actually going to find time to "work on it"...?
Bpatch50
Expert
I was able to ride the vipers yesterday at Old Forge. Coming from an 09 Nytro RTX SE, the Viper is a superior sled. As soon as we pulled out of the parking lot and hit a series of small rollers, it was evident this is a more comfortable sled. Where I would have to stand on my Nytro, the bumps were almost unnoticeable on the viper. I agree with what people are saying with the engines. They aren't bad but the power isn't at the level of the Nytro RIGHT NOW. The rep I spoke with said the demo sleds are around 130hp, and that Yamaha is planning on getting the production models to 138/139. This will be a fast sled when the snow flies next season.
The Viper feels light. I'm not in the least concerned with how much this sled weighs on paper. If its heavier than its 2 stroke competition, it's not noticeable. Yamaha did a great job of distributing the weight.
The rep also said Yamaha has concentrated on fixing all the trouble areas that Cat is dealing with. He said the chain case was basically gutted and redesigned, the seat was redesigned, different bearing are being used where the Cat ones are failing, the cross shaft problems will be gone, etc. after yesterday, I feel confident the Viper won't suffer from Cat reliability.
The last sled I rode for the day was the Apex. I had forgotten how smooth and responsive this engine is. Unbelievable. The other thing I wanted to point out was how much smoother the Apex rides than the Viper. Running through small rollers and studder bumps, it felt like you we're riding down a highway. It was so unbelievably comfortable. Obviously the Apex will not run through bigger bumps like a Viper. So in my eyes, if you're riding Canada type trails where you never see anything larger than a 1 foot mogul, the Apex is still the cats pajamas. If you want a fun sled to ride aggressively, push through the bumps, and race your buddies corner to corner, the Viper is awesome.
If you liked the Nytro, you will love the Viper.
The Viper feels light. I'm not in the least concerned with how much this sled weighs on paper. If its heavier than its 2 stroke competition, it's not noticeable. Yamaha did a great job of distributing the weight.
The rep also said Yamaha has concentrated on fixing all the trouble areas that Cat is dealing with. He said the chain case was basically gutted and redesigned, the seat was redesigned, different bearing are being used where the Cat ones are failing, the cross shaft problems will be gone, etc. after yesterday, I feel confident the Viper won't suffer from Cat reliability.
The last sled I rode for the day was the Apex. I had forgotten how smooth and responsive this engine is. Unbelievable. The other thing I wanted to point out was how much smoother the Apex rides than the Viper. Running through small rollers and studder bumps, it felt like you we're riding down a highway. It was so unbelievably comfortable. Obviously the Apex will not run through bigger bumps like a Viper. So in my eyes, if you're riding Canada type trails where you never see anything larger than a 1 foot mogul, the Apex is still the cats pajamas. If you want a fun sled to ride aggressively, push through the bumps, and race your buddies corner to corner, the Viper is awesome.
If you liked the Nytro, you will love the Viper.
blueironranger
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I'll also expand on my review from above. We WERE warned that these were pre-production sleds with preliminary tunes, not the Final product by any means. I got to ride Both Viper XTX sleds and they were definitely not setup the same as one was pretty smooth at slower speed and the other was a lot more "snappy" like my Phazer and needed more throttle to make her move but when it decided to go it WENT. I went there with Buddy that rides an Edge XC 600 and another on a Doo 1st gen Rev 600 and they both LOVED the Viper over there current sleds. The guy on the XC600 was looking to purchase a left over 136" Rush 600 but really considering the Viper XTX now and has decided to wait on purchasing a leftover rush because of the test ride. The funny part was that one of the Yamaha guys actually told me that people showing up in Yamaha gear didn't seem to like the sled too much but people wearing other brands gear seemed to like it for the most part and I got the same general consensus from everyone I talked too. If for some reason my sled disappeared, money was no object, and I HAD to purchase a new sled for next year it WOULD be a Viper XTX SE. I didn't get to sample either the short track or the LTX as they only brought a 129" and a pair of 141" XTX. If they offer a ~100hp twin that's 25# lighter for 2015 and the 2014 prove reliable then I'll probably get one. MAKE ME A VENOM XTX!
My main gripes on the Viper XTX
-kept knocking my knees against the cowling, needs pads!
-My feet didn't feel "connected" to the running boards, and I couldn't seem to "lock" my feet in like I can on my Phazer, I actually had my foot come of the running boards a time or two.
-Corner push but I kinda expected that with 141" straight rail skid and a 1.6" track
-Wasn't allowed to try it out in the Powder!
but understandable
-I really can't knock on the big bump ride too much as I'm VERY use to my Phazer with Premium properly valved shocks set to my weight where as the Viper wasn't setup.
and the Proof, Rider #49
[/url] viper front by Rancherlee, on Flickr[/img]
My main gripes on the Viper XTX
-kept knocking my knees against the cowling, needs pads!
-My feet didn't feel "connected" to the running boards, and I couldn't seem to "lock" my feet in like I can on my Phazer, I actually had my foot come of the running boards a time or two.
-Corner push but I kinda expected that with 141" straight rail skid and a 1.6" track
-Wasn't allowed to try it out in the Powder!
but understandable-I really can't knock on the big bump ride too much as I'm VERY use to my Phazer with Premium properly valved shocks set to my weight where as the Viper wasn't setup.
and the Proof, Rider #49
ccrider
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What seems to not be adding up for me with all of this "these sleds are not the final tune" comments by Yamaha....is that Yamaha hasn't been doing ANYTHING in the sled market for the last 5 years. One would assume that this Viper was not thrown together at the last minute. So why doesn't Yamaha have is thing perfected and ready to go???
My guess is that this Viper idea was thrown together at the last minute....which I am willing to bet will lead to a poor first model year.
Only time will tell...with the cooperation of those of us who wish to be the $13k ginnuea pigs for Yamacat.
My guess is that this Viper idea was thrown together at the last minute....which I am willing to bet will lead to a poor first model year.
Only time will tell...with the cooperation of those of us who wish to be the $13k ginnuea pigs for Yamacat.
And how are monopolies lost?
Think about it. Some very good product people invent some very good products, and the company achieves a monopoly. But after that, the product people aren't the ones that drive the company forward anymore. It's the "marketing guys" or the ones who expand the business into other regions or whatever.
Because what's the point of focusing on making the product even better when the only company you can take business from is yourself? So a different group of people start to move up. And who usually ends up running the show? The sales guy.
Then one day, the monopoly expires for whatever reason. But by then the best product people have left, or they're no longer listened to. And so the company goes through this tumultuous time, and it either survives or it doesn't. Example: look at Microsoft — who's running Microsoft? ( Steve Ballmer.) Right, the sales guy. Case closed. And hopefully this isn't the start of what's happening at Yamaha, as well.
Yamaha owners have a fundamental belief that doing it right the first time was going to be easier than having to go back and fix it. And I cannot say strongly enough that the repercussions of that attitude are staggering.
I'm a fan of the Viper look but if it doesn't perform as I expect baring the Yamaha name then I'm not going to buy one. My cup is half full, I'm hopeful the Viper will be great, but releasing a product that's said to still be in R n D mode is...................
Think about it. Some very good product people invent some very good products, and the company achieves a monopoly. But after that, the product people aren't the ones that drive the company forward anymore. It's the "marketing guys" or the ones who expand the business into other regions or whatever.
Because what's the point of focusing on making the product even better when the only company you can take business from is yourself? So a different group of people start to move up. And who usually ends up running the show? The sales guy.
Then one day, the monopoly expires for whatever reason. But by then the best product people have left, or they're no longer listened to. And so the company goes through this tumultuous time, and it either survives or it doesn't. Example: look at Microsoft — who's running Microsoft? ( Steve Ballmer.) Right, the sales guy. Case closed. And hopefully this isn't the start of what's happening at Yamaha, as well.
Yamaha owners have a fundamental belief that doing it right the first time was going to be easier than having to go back and fix it. And I cannot say strongly enough that the repercussions of that attitude are staggering.
I'm a fan of the Viper look but if it doesn't perform as I expect baring the Yamaha name then I'm not going to buy one. My cup is half full, I'm hopeful the Viper will be great, but releasing a product that's said to still be in R n D mode is...................
actionjack
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LOL Sure the sales guys are telling operations "We must give the customer what they want! Just make sure it's a piece of shite!" Please.
I am hoping the Viper works out. If not I would say Yamaha is a Snomo engine producer only in a short time.
I am hoping the Viper works out. If not I would say Yamaha is a Snomo engine producer only in a short time.
I will say that even though my Phazer put me through hell the first year Yamaha did step up 100%.They also made many changes to address the issues the 07 had.Most important of all is even though it broke many times it NEVER cut my rides short.I trust Yamaha.They have earned it.Been losing sleep thinking about that Viper lately.At least one thing is for sure.Its the coolest looking sled for sure!
The OP said the Viper pushed and that's what the magazines mentioned about the Cat Pro-cross when it was first released. I believe the '13 models had the bulkhead angle changed to sharpen up the handling. Makes me wonder if the Vipers use the older bulkhead angle so there is more room for the motor or something? The good thing is understeer can be corrected with a set of C&A's.
The more reviews I read about the Viper the more inclined I am to think this sled was kind of thrown together at the last minute. It seems foolish to have the demo sleds run and perform so poorly that people's first impression is generally negative. That wouldn't happen if they had been testing the Viper for quite some time.
I also wonder why Yamaha spent the time and effort to race the Nytro's in USXC for the past 2 seasons and use nothing on the Viper from that effort? The modified Nytro's have been competitive so it seems like they would have been heading down the road to have offered an improved consumer model with those parts? I'm thinking somebody decided the Nytro's name and look was bad for business and let's go with a Cat chassis. If that decision was made recently, it would explain why the Viper doesn't appear to be completely sorted out. The issues people are bringing up about the demo Vipers are what is commonly found with new models from Cat and Polaris. Could be simple as that. Now that they will be built in Thief River Falls you will get all the common issues on a 1st year sled. The good thing is Cat will offer fixes during the season and improve things the following year on their version, but it might be a good idea to buy a second year Viper so the bugs can be worked out.
The more reviews I read about the Viper the more inclined I am to think this sled was kind of thrown together at the last minute. It seems foolish to have the demo sleds run and perform so poorly that people's first impression is generally negative. That wouldn't happen if they had been testing the Viper for quite some time.
I also wonder why Yamaha spent the time and effort to race the Nytro's in USXC for the past 2 seasons and use nothing on the Viper from that effort? The modified Nytro's have been competitive so it seems like they would have been heading down the road to have offered an improved consumer model with those parts? I'm thinking somebody decided the Nytro's name and look was bad for business and let's go with a Cat chassis. If that decision was made recently, it would explain why the Viper doesn't appear to be completely sorted out. The issues people are bringing up about the demo Vipers are what is commonly found with new models from Cat and Polaris. Could be simple as that. Now that they will be built in Thief River Falls you will get all the common issues on a 1st year sled. The good thing is Cat will offer fixes during the season and improve things the following year on their version, but it might be a good idea to buy a second year Viper so the bugs can be worked out.
Alatalo
TY 4 Stroke Master
Exactly what I am trying to say...!AKrider said:
Some of the Yamaha sales reps are trying to convince customers that the Pro Cross chassis was designed by Arctic Cat and Yamaha TOGETHER. That it was meant to carry the Arctic Cat two stroker, the Arctic Cat four stroker AND the Yamaha triple from day one. That it was designed like this already back in 2009-2010. That Yamaha engineers already spent years in Thief River Falls, performing R&D together with Arctic Cat engineers, teaching Arctic Cat engineers about Yamahas quality system.
As this type of cooperation is very common in the rest of the automotive industry, I was ready to buy the whole lot. Until I started to read reviews from guys that actually did ride the prototypes. After reading these reviews I am not so sure about the claimed long term cooperation. If anything, it feels more like something that has been going on since couple of weeks before the press release...
-"Shite, we need something new for 2014...".
-"Quick, let's put the Nytro mill into a competitors chassis...".
-"But Sir, we got no time to sort out fueling and clutching...".
-"Ah well, I am sure the competitor will sort that out for us if we give them a smoking deal on the same engine...".
Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing Yamaha and I am positive about this type of cooperation. As already said, this type of cooperation is common in the rest of the automotive industry and this could be the thing that makes Arctic Cat as well as Yamaha stay in the snowmobile industry. But all of these reviews about poor fueling and clutching and demo sleds that stall has got me seriously worried. Yamaha has always done things like this by the book and never before would they let the customers ride demo sleds that does not perform. Maybe times are changing...? Maybe this is part of the cooperation...?
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