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Pilot 6.9 ski's installed

Discussion in 'SideWinder Trail Talk' started by ROCKERDAN, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. ROCKERDAN

    ROCKERDAN OCD Sledhead VIP Member

    Messages:
    4,253
    Location:
    Huntsville Ontario & Niagara NY
    Country:
    Other
    Snowmobile:
    '18 RTX 50th "Winder"
    Hey TY gang....

    Been awhile since I've really wrote much of anything over here. Spent 2006 though 2013 in the Apex forums and then jumped over to try a turbo from Cat, and 14 went back over to Doo and now have my 2016 4tec. So its been fun being all over and have come away with lots of good/bad from other brands.

    Back in 06 with the Apex handling quirks, the pilot ski had just be designed and was new, the 5.7 pilot at the time transformed the Apex into a real nice tight trail 'railer' and it cured the inside ski lift that model was known for.

    In 2012 when I got my cat turbo(procross chassie) I did not like the heavy darting that came with that sled out of the box, so i decided to go back to my 'staple' ski, the pilot 5.7, which I pulled off my apex for a test, and sure enough that cat became an ultra nice handler, no darting and light effort.

    On my current 1200 4tec doo, which is ultra rider forward XS chassie, I decided to try out the pilots but this time in the 6.9 version, as the extra flotation is really welcomed on the 4tec with the extra nose weight being an extreme rider forward design, and the results impressed me. Not only incredible in powder making the 4s feel fun and playful(2s like) but also being even BETTER on trail then the 5.7, as the 6.9 has a wider unique distance between the two carbides when compared directly to the ultra popular 5.7 pilot.

    So last week my local buddy out of the blue tells me he has a new Sidewinder LTX LE, and Im welcome to come ride it! Ive been lurking since Chris Reid released the info last winter on the SW engine, as most of us 4tec guys have been wanting a BRP turbo but it seems their cash cow will always rule. Needless to say, getting some seat time on a new SW was incredible.

    New LE 137 was right out of the box stock, Tom is not the type to do alot of tinkering himself but was open to me making some suggestions. After the 110 mile ride, I was SOLD 100% on this new engine configuration and how it makes the power so smoothly, this is pure Yammie and really puts the old ZUK to shame in many ways. Impressive!

    The handling I felt needed work, being nose heavy and steering that was far too heavy, and little to no transfer(no studs yet either). I immediately thought of the 6.9s to make this chassie steering feel better.

    So Tom ordered them up, St.Onge happened to have a pair there so we got all the goods needed, as I had all the part numbers and specifics. I will try to include all the info here as Ive got quite a few PMs both here and on DooTalk on this setup. I took a ton of pics of every step, along with going over the entire sled with fine tooth comb since I may become an owner of one....quite a nice package here, and you can see yammies hands are all over this new gem.

    Part numbers for pilot 6.9s.....

    QTY- BRP Part Number

    1 - #505073056 RH 6.9 Ski
    1 - #505073055 LH 6.9 Ski

    2 - #505070963 Ski handle
    2 - #860200525 Ski handle rivets(A better solution is SS bolts/Nuts-Will post sizes )
    1 - #860200580 BRP Executive 8" 60 degree 1/2" round host bar carbide(for center)
    1- #860201044 BRP 4" square 7/16" host bar for outers(or move from center to outer)


    Another great thing about this setup, is it not only is the best setup overall IMO, but also is by far the cheapest when compared to aftermarket skis. BRP dealers can now order them again as they have become an available item after being discontinued....Here Leaders sells them on ebay:
    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Ski-Doo-New-...32c2694:g:-Q8AAOSwUuFWzTeM&vxp=mtr&rmvSB=true

    I run 5" BRP "extreme bars on my 1200 setup which works well, we got the larger 7.5" executive series as this chassies does not suffer from the quirks of the XS DOO chassie and seems to do well with more carbide where the doo does not. The extremes will work well too no doubt, but Tom opted for the 7.5"(BRP calls them 8")

    I nearly forgot the conclusion....after many adjustments to alot, this new LE LTX now feels like I added EPS, and is NOW simply a pleasure to ride. Absolutely the best improvement to this chassie is to drop the stock ski, and slap on some pilot 6.9s, your arms and wallet will appreciate it!

    Dan

    ...................



    IMG_8474.JPG IMG_8472.JPG IMG_8508.JPG IMG_8605.JPG


     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  2.  
  3. ROCKERDAN

    ROCKERDAN OCD Sledhead VIP Member

    Messages:
    4,253
    Location:
    Huntsville Ontario & Niagara NY
    Country:
    Other
    Snowmobile:
    '18 RTX 50th "Winder"
    Retrofitting pilots to SW:

    The width between the bushings(spindle width) on the SW is approx 3". The width on the Pilots is 2-7/8". Very similar to the cat and apex install, we need to remove and reinstall ONE SIDE bushing, to allow the SW spindle to fit into the ski.

    The best method is to remove, and reinsert the OUTSIDE bushing in the pilot ski. Simply remove the outer bushing as it comes from factory, and reinsert it from outside. This puts the shoulder of the bushing onto the outside of ski.

    Dan

    .................
    IMG_8512.JPG IMG_8513.JPG IMG_8526.JPG IMG_8527.JPG
    IMG_8528.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
    synaptic3e likes this.
  4. ROCKERDAN

    ROCKERDAN OCD Sledhead VIP Member

    Messages:
    4,253
    Location:
    Huntsville Ontario & Niagara NY
    Country:
    Other
    Snowmobile:
    '18 RTX 50th "Winder"
    Using stock SW Rubbers:

    Now we need to deal with the rubbers. While they are very close, and much closer then my cat was, I feel they do need to be sized up to allow for a "proper shimming" of the pilot ski, this means the ski will ride at a correct level to the ground, in order to help reduce darting and have good wear of carbide.

    I went through a few scenarios, and mountings.....and ended up with what I feel will be really good for a natural built in shim using the rubber. On the DOOs we need to shim them as the pilot naturally(with BRP rubbers) likes to wear toward the front more, and then brings on darting. So we shim our DOOs with Scotts BRP shims. With the way I have modded the rubbers, the shim is now built into the rubber.

    Front to back, the rubber will fit, albeit tight. Also left to right squeezes in too. So the overall dimension of the SW rubber fits into the pocket of the Pilot with some force, warmer the rubber is the better, so doing this at minus 30 is not gonna be easy. LOL

    What is needed, to allow the bolt to be installed without 5 guys all pushing on spindle, is a small trimming of the rubber on the BOTTOM, forward most section. Flip the rubber over, and on the bottom there are two side "raised" sections of rubber......There is 2 inches from front of pilot pocket to a small ridge in center of pocket, we want to trim this raised section FLAT for 2 inches from front of rubber, as it will not only allow for an easier install, but will lend to a natural "shimming" effect since we like to have more height on the rear of rubber which pushes down on the rear of ski, raising the front of ski. Be certain you have the rubber oriented correctly, with the outside of rubber having the ledge on top(offset of ski stance) before you start trimming, so you have the front 2" of both ledges correct, then trim them off flat. Each ski rubber will have the opposite look when done.

    Dan

    ...............

    IMG_8563.JPG IMG_8564.JPG IMG_8565.JPG IMG_8566.JPG IMG_8567.JPG IMG_8533.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
    synaptic3e likes this.
  5. ROCKERDAN

    ROCKERDAN OCD Sledhead VIP Member

    Messages:
    4,253
    Location:
    Huntsville Ontario & Niagara NY
    Country:
    Other
    Snowmobile:
    '18 RTX 50th "Winder"
    SW main ski Bolt and washers:

    Now that we have the OUTER bushing reinserted, we can change the washer setup on the ski bolt install....

    We need to do this cause the spacing after the bushing change, still is not exact and additionally, now that we have changed the outer bushing, we want a shoulder INSIDE that outer ski plastic, between the SW spindle and the plastic ski(since the bushing shoulder is now outside) so it does not wear on the plastic.

    From outside to inside: Bolt, Bushing, Ski, Washer, SW spindle, Bushing, Ski, Washer, Nut, cotter pin.

    Dan

    ............

    IMG_8536.JPG IMG_8539.JPG IMG_8550.JPG IMG_8551.JPG IMG_8554.JPG IMG_8557.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  6. WINDER1987

    WINDER1987 TY 4 Stroke Guru

    Messages:
    826
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Great write up Subscribed
     
  7. jonlafon1

    jonlafon1 TY 4 Stroke Guru

    Messages:
    833
    Location:
    Mount Morris, WI
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    Sidewinder LTX-SE
    Nice . Great details Rockerdan!!!
     
  8. WINDER1987

    WINDER1987 TY 4 Stroke Guru

    Messages:
    826
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    What seemed to be the best suspension setup on the LE?
     
  9. actionjack

    actionjack TY 4 Stroke God

    Messages:
    1,769
    Location:
    Westminster, Maryland
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    2017 SideWinder LTX-LE
    Ya know I was under the impression Dan actually spring ordered a SW. Thats 1/2 the reason I bought one. Great details. Now please tell me which helix to buy by next weekend.
    Thanks
    Jack
     
    Snowaddict, ROCKERDAN and jonlafon1 like this.
  10. ROCKERDAN

    ROCKERDAN OCD Sledhead VIP Member

    Messages:
    4,253
    Location:
    Huntsville Ontario & Niagara NY
    Country:
    Other
    Snowmobile:
    '18 RTX 50th "Winder"
    Picture below shows the nice angle of how the ski sets when lifted on the hoist, I find they work best when they have a slight tilt rearward as shown here....this should wear well.

    Dan

    .....................







    IMG_8556.JPG
     
  11. JestersYamacat

    JestersYamacat Extreme

    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    2017 Sidewinder LTS-SE Black/ Orange, 2012 xf1100lxr Green
    LOCATION:
    Kanata, Ontario
    Great to see you like it. I was really impressed after a 100 mile ride last week. The QS3 are really the best shock out there and transform the front and rear of this machine as they did on 2016 on the limiteds. The motor just seems to put it all together although the 2016 limited with a tune was really good and so much better than the 2015 you really had to try it. Cheers

    Jester
     
    ROCKERDAN likes this.
  12. ROCKERDAN

    ROCKERDAN OCD Sledhead VIP Member

    Messages:
    4,253
    Location:
    Huntsville Ontario & Niagara NY
    Country:
    Other
    Snowmobile:
    '18 RTX 50th "Winder"
    Outer Carbide Install:

    For those that never worked with Pilots, they do not come setup for outer carbides, BRP being cheap! So you will need to drill out the two spots on outside of skis, with a 3/8" drill bit. Take your new carbide and hold it onto bottom of ski, and scribe a mark where you will need to drill...drill them up through on same angle as the stud.

    We all move our stock square whimpy bars to outers, but when buying new you will need to buy them(first post) to mount to outers. On the pilots the outer is more or less an outrigger that is set up higher, and does NOT touch the ground in hard conditions, and only comes into play when turning on the inside ski as the ski tilts on axis upon full turn. It does help nicely on trail where both keels will touch. The outer will last forever, and does not NOR WANT a larger carbide, we want to keep effort down here. Some go without an outer altogether,however I do not recommend that as the outside of ski can wear out prematurely on roads/banks ect.

    In this case, we forgot to buy the cheapos for outers, so I slapped on an old pair of bars I had here for now.....

    Notice the very unique shape of the pilot, and even more unique to the 6.9 is the inside LIP, helping even more with any darting.

    Dan

    ...........

    IMG_8486.JPG IMG_8485.JPG IMG_8491.JPG IMG_8487.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  13. jtmetal

    jtmetal TY 4 Stroke Guru

    Messages:
    763
    Location:
    Northern Illinois
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    '17 Sidewinder LTX SE
    What a write up......

    Thanks Dan.
     
    ROCKERDAN likes this.
  14. ROCKERDAN

    ROCKERDAN OCD Sledhead VIP Member

    Messages:
    4,253
    Location:
    Huntsville Ontario & Niagara NY
    Country:
    Other
    Snowmobile:
    '18 RTX 50th "Winder"
    Ski Handles -- SS Nuts and bolts:

    I touched on this in the OP in the part numbers... I prefer to use SS Nuts and Bolts for the ski handle installation. We were short on time and just wanted to get these on, so we opted to grab the BRP RIVET KITS, which IMO are a total pain in butt, and are not easily removed if you ever want to swap handles.

    On my sled I go with Stainless steel bolts and SS Nylock nuts......Im pretty anal about how things look so I was sure to get the best size so they would not stick out too far past the nuts. Also makes this entire installation far simpler and faster!



    Here is what worked best for me....

    2@ 3- 3/4" Length
    2@ 1- 3/4" Length
    4@ Nylock Nuts
    5/16'' Diameter


    You will need 2 of each size bolts, and 4 nuts.

    Dan

    ....... IMG_4301.jpg IMG_4304.jpg IMG_4309.jpg IMG_4302.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
    1100saber likes this.
  15. ROCKERDAN

    ROCKERDAN OCD Sledhead VIP Member

    Messages:
    4,253
    Location:
    Huntsville Ontario & Niagara NY
    Country:
    Other
    Snowmobile:
    '18 RTX 50th "Winder"
    Hey old Buddy!

    Ahh yes....the time i now have on the SW LE has really been awesome. Now with the new skis and setup suspension, it really shines nicely. While this sled is no lightweight, the suspension is so well sprung(compared to my undersprung doo) that it just takes everything in stride nicely, and nothing seems to phase this front end. Im very impressed with the ZERO feedback through the handlebars(unlike the doo) in which you get ready for a hit and just dont feel it, really nice.

    I dove into the setup and underhood after I got skis done...removal of all plastics WITHOUT TOOLS in about 30 seconds is truly amazing(compared to my 2012!) and pure pleasure, even compared to my doo break down with tools. Nice work there YAM engineers. Running her hard last time out on hi speed rail bed, to only feel barely mild clutches and belt was another huge bonus, man o man the 2012 procross is faint bad memory now, this is incredible to see 200+HP with cool clutching. BRP 1200 typically very HOT, albeit belt life has been perfect.

    SUSPENSION:

    Front: I removed ALL coil tension, down to nothing to get the A arms real close to level. Do this by raising the nose off ground, and loosening the lock and collar, until you start to feel the coil lay loosely in its seat. Make sure its snug enough so it does not pop out of the seat when your skis catch flight. I Set Rebound clicker to middle, and compression clicker to #1. ......It was at #3!

    Center: I was not shocked to see the center coil(main and tender) to be at close to MIN, with only about 5 threads showing from softest. Pic below. I increased the center main/tender coil combo to a total length of 7-5/8". I tried 7-3/8" and it was rather harsh on some jigglers with too much feedback thru the seat(still to firm BTW IMO). After a few tests I am guessing the center can even go abit softer, since the pilot skis are so nice and light on effort, so that can be dailed in. I always measure the total length of the COIL SPRING ITSELF, be it one main spring or a main/tender combo, this will give accurate setups from person to person, and leave nothing in question. Talking about threads or other ways of measuring IMO can become too confusing. I also left the center on #1 clicker.

    REAR: I left the rear torsions on #1 setting, for me this is still rather firm and shows little transfer, but Tom is bigger then me so he may need to up this. I left the clicker also on #1. I then removed the transfer rod and removed the blocks altogether, then reinstalled the rod. We are working on a custom rod, and I see my dealer(DGs) is also doing same. The SW 137 just needs more transfer period. IMO the straps are too tight and need loosening, I did not do anything here but would be doing this on my own sled, the straps do not look to have alot more length to add however, so would need to look closer at this.

    After this, along with the pilots, the sled simply rides great....it feels much lighter riding it then trying to move it around my shop..LOL, just goes to show what good shocks can do for a heavier sled. My 2012 cat rode downright horrible, much of that must have been the seat and the floats, this softer seat is better(but really needs to be softer like an X seat) and the fox Qs3r shocks are so fantastic I just cant say enough about them.

    This is one solid feeling high speed monster, and out of the box by far the fastest, quietest most stable sled i think ive rode. Being able to work on one, and ride one....and very soon be radaring it along with power mods(since tom is wanting more!) it is gonna be a fun winter, and will go a long way in helping me decide if I want to dive back into the turbo world, I sure miss the big power.

    Dan

    ...............

    IMG_8593.JPG IMG_8594.JPG IMG_8571.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
    cannondale27 and Chase22 like this.
  16. JestersYamacat

    JestersYamacat Extreme

    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    2017 Sidewinder LTS-SE Black/ Orange, 2012 xf1100lxr Green
    LOCATION:
    Kanata, Ontario
    Good to hear from you Dan! IT is too bad more people did not get to try the 2016 limited as it is just about as good with the QS3 shocks. Night and day difference. My 2012 is damn close but I have ohlins in the rear with valving that is oh so close to the QS3 an I just redid my exit shocks to similar valving to the QS3 setting 2 to 3 would be a close comparison and I am using a stock QS3 spring. I am like 4 gs into suspension alone in upgrades to get it there and that does not include clutching (torsional secondary), better bumper and god knows what else. Way more than any one person should ever have to spend to make something right and it still is not as nice a trail sled as the 17. I will be on one soon enough but my wife has reservations due to my last foray(all the extra jing). I had her ride it this past weekend and she fell in love so not long now. I may have to get her one first! FAWK!

    :) Jester
     
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