Sidewinder helix options, product update

[helix]

Hi Guys.
Thought I'd post a bit of info here since the sidewinder and the way it gets set up is relatively new and a lot of new testing ongoing.
We get a lot of questions about helixes

Sometimes we are mistaken for a clutch kit company, and some are not as familiar with what we do here, so we are often asked " what is the hot set up".....or "what helix will be the best one for my winder?"

As many of you know, we do not do any "kits" or do set up suggestions for snowmobiles, rather, we sell individual components to companies that do that, performance companies that do packages...and people who tune their own clutches.

I thought it may be worth mentioning here that I see it on a regular basis that someone will buy a helix based on "internet info" and only end up ordering another one because it put them way the wrong direction...lowered rpm and lost speed or whatever the case may be.
While this is good for sales of helixes, it is something that I like to see people have good results and not have to go through that type of thing more than necessary. I thought I'd post a bit of info that may help.
This forum is a fantastic tool and lot of people here with the common interest of helping each other, and it is always good intention.
The only reason I'm stating what I'm about to is that it should be noted that something like a helix can be very case specific, and I'm just hoping to let people know to try to consider that a lot of different components, tunes, traction, gearing, ..terrain and type of riding.. etc all come into play.......and I think quite often people just think "good helix" and don't always consider ALL the other things that may come into play.

Helix controls "rate of upshift and backshift of the secondary clutch".

For instance, a few examples :

1) One person ,telling his story, is using a same HP tune...but maybe a totally different type, curve, and total gram of flyweights in the front clutch....and even a different rate primary spring.

....is the required "rate of shift in the secondary" the same for your sled if you have a different flyweight type?
probably not.

2) Another is suggesting a certain helix worked good for him...sounds like he has a similar tune, but is using taller gearing.
- is the required "rate of shift of the secondary clutch" the same if you have shorter gears?
...probably not.

3) a member suggest that he has a set up he likes...maybe try his helix...but he is using totally different spring rates...spring is the opposing pressure to the helix in the secondary...different spring in the primary could even have effect.

4) some have stock Yamaha type curvature flyweights...which need to use more grams than some aftermarket flyweights. Those with stock flat curve type and more grams are flyweights that swing out but sometimes do not return as easily, and different helixes are used to help back shifting those type. ( and vise versa).

Heck, even to properly "test" a helix involves a few different experiments with spring rates and flyweight mass, etc.

I know for many of you here this is all snowmobile stuff you have considered for years, I'm just throwing out there a few notes from the top of my head to help people that may be unfamiliar to consider all variables.
In the end, most situations need a bit of fine tuning and all of the info you get here is good info.

There starting to be more testing completed, but also a lot of "new, quicker spooling" tunes by the sound of things.

We have a long list of helixes available and to me it is interesting that it is still so "all over the place" for what helixes are common. I think because there are so many variations of HP, tune and traction and gearing, etc that it is this way.

As simply a matter of interest, lately the most common versions seem to be ( in no certain order):

33/35, 33/37, 35 straight, 37/33, 37/35, 39/35, 40/36, 41/37. .....and it seems to me that lately more and more people are moving to the center of that scale. That doesnt mean the center of those is the best, it may be that gearing or tunes is changing...or flyweights used, etc.

I'm just posting how it seems to be moving. We are selling to a lot of people the second or third helix.
Sometimes that starts to help narrow it down, but it doesn't change the most important thing....the "best helix for YOU" comes from the test results from yourself and your own situation ( or someone who is doing everything EXACTLY the same as you).

I know this is not the magic answer for a magic helix we seem to get calls for daily, but I truly hope this helps a bit for those unfamiliar.

Happy clutch tuning

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Great post Dale with many wise statements.

Nice to hear from the best clutch component maker, bar none....

Dan

 

[chaleurphantom]

I am waiting on a 33/37 and your Orange-Black secondary spring. Interested to see the results of temperature of Secondary and belt as a result.

I have blown a Gates Carbon 8jp at 500 miles already. Full speed run, 8700 RPM, 105 mph. Bang. Super hot. No flash, stock. Wanting to flash but until I get clutching straightened out stock, not much use to add horsepower.

I was thinking I had a slipping secondary causing heat build up and the poor performance of top speed? I am not sure.

Then I read statements of overclamping caused by a heavy spring in the Secondary causing heat and poor performance? Once again, I am not sure.

After blowing belt I put on spare and took it easy as I wanted to make it home. 40 - 50 mph. Secondary clutch was still pretty hot compared to Primary clutch.

Stock helix, Orange TP in Secondary.

 

[NOS-PRO]

Thank you Dale

Especially for #4, the more grams needed for flatter curve weights and then the weights not returning back as fast as the more curve weights.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

I am waiting on a 33/37 and your Orange-Black secondary spring. Interested to see the results of temperature of Secondary and belt as a result.

I have blown a Gates Carbon 8jp at 500 miles already. Full speed run, 8700 RPM, 105 mph. Bang. Super hot. No flash, stock.

Stock helix, Orange TP in Secondary.

I pulled the TP orange after a blow with a 33/35.

If you keep running it, wrap it much lower to 2/3 or even 3/1 and even heard recently trying 0/3

It has alot more torsional pressure when wrapped equally.

Dan

 

[chaleurphantom]

I pulled the TP orange after a blow with a 33/35.

If you keep running it, wrap it much lower to 2/3 or even 3/1 and even heard recently trying 0/3

It has alot more torsional pressure when wrapped equally.

Dan

I had it wrapped 3/3 initially. Very hot and hard to turn Helix to get it on.

Dropped to 3/2. Easier to put on but clutches were still hot. That's were it was set at when it blew.

I am looking forward to the Dalton Spring Orange/Black. I am thinking I am going to set it at 6/1 initially and start there.

 

[BTP]

Great post.......

 

[helix]

Thank you Dale

Especially for #4, the more grams needed for flatter curve weights and then the weights not returning back as fast as the more curve weights.

yes, it is a note that some do no consider for sure.
A heavy hitter or early stm ( I think) are more aggressive curve and run less weight, stock type curve is very flat and runs heavier weight. It all has effect on which helix may work best with that ( and all the rest of components considered as well). I personally have never had much use for stock Yamaha curvature...going way back to my RX-1, ...but lots will probably argue, and thats ok. Not everyone clutches the same. One thing is for sure, if using stock curvature nothing else is really relative...it acts different.

Dalton quick adjust weights are in between there..sort of...between the real aggressive and the stock curvature.

Flyweight curves and clutching theories are sometimes turned into debates like motor oil..I'm not here to do that. I'm just offering some suggestions of different variables to consider when choosing components to tune with. I'm sure there are lots of ways to tune this sled in its various forms.

 

[snowbeast]

As always Dale,you take the time to give examples of all sorts of different set ups that could net results. Thanks Dale

 

[snowbeast]

I had it wrapped 3/3 initially. Very hot and hard to turn Helix to get it on.

Dropped to 3/2. Easier to put on but clutches were still hot. That's were it was set at when it blew.

I am looking forward to the Dalton Spring Orange/Black. I am thinking I am going to set it at 6/1 initially and start there.

That is the new spring I just got,if anything,dont wrap it to 70 way to tight,this spring is a monster of secondary springs as of now,i would start at 3/0 30 degrees,i am not kidding,just try it,see what heat and performance you get,you can always wrap it tighter,if belt lives.

 

[helix]

I am waiting on a 33/37 and your Orange-Black secondary spring. Interested to see the results of temperature of Secondary and belt as a result.

I have blown a Gates Carbon 8jp at 500 miles already. Full speed run, 8700 RPM, 105 mph. Bang. Super hot. No flash, stock. Wanting to flash but until I get clutching straightened out stock, not much use to add horsepower.

I was thinking I had a slipping secondary causing heat build up and the poor performance of top speed? I am not sure.

Then I read statements of overclamping caused by a heavy spring in the Secondary causing heat and poor performance? Once again, I am not sure.

After blowing belt I put on spare and took it easy as I wanted to make it home. 40 - 50 mph. Secondary clutch was still pretty hot compared to Primary clutch.

Stock helix, Orange TP in Secondary.

I have not seen or used one of the TPI orange secondary spring to know but I hear of it and some seem to use it with good success, it may work with some experimenting for your application. There could be other factors involved as well possibly.
Our Black orange secondary spring is getting good feedback also.

From feedback I hear it seems that either of the Yamaha belts are actually performing better for longevity and durability than any of the aftermarket, but again, ...you know how that type of comment can fuel a fire .

 

[helix]

With the Dalton DPSS-YBO ( black /orange), it is mostly used at 60 or 70 degrees. ...on reflashed sidewinders it seems more common to run 6-1.

...however some claim they run it at 3-3 and adjust flyweights accordingly for what they do...that is more often stockers using QAY66 and stock gearing I believe.

As always...lots of variables.

The spring does have a Yamaha spring tang pattern. Yamaha use a few different versions of spring tang locations , all of which work with the stock 0-3-6-9 settings etc.
This one is like the version on Yamaha "silver" tang locations. The torsion settings are regular yamaha numbers.

Like all Yamaha springs, they all have different torsion values. When this one is set at 70 degrees it is similar torsion to the stock sidewinder spring ( not that this is necessarily where it has to be set...it does have more compression and that changes things)

 

[chaleurphantom]

I have not seen or used one of the TPI orange secondary spring to know but I hear of it and some seem to use it with good success, it may work with some experimenting for your application. There could be other factors involved as well possibly.
Our Black orange secondary spring is getting good feedback also.

From feedback I hear it seems that either of the Yamaha belts are actually performing better for longevity and durability than any of the aftermarket, but again, ...you know how that type of comment can fuel a fire .

I have a new 8DN I am going to test as well as an 8JP. I have used both in the past on different sleds. I was disappointed how dusty the 8JP belt was when I first bought my Viper. I quickly had switched to the Gates Carbon then. It worked very well in that application. I expected similar results with my Sidewinder. I changed a lot of variables in the Sidewinder initially. Much the same as my Viper. I had very good results with my Viper but not with my Sidewinder.

I will work on it until I am satisfied. I have no choice. My friend has a completely stock 850 Renegade XRS. 187 km/hr on a long run, speedometer. 116mph. Very impressive. Piston Alley. Best I seen was 106 mph before blowing belt.

 

[Tarzan]

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[Joe ltx-le]

Great post dale. We are having great luck testing your gear. Keep it up.