Testing Viper clutches on Sidewinder

[Fleecer]

Well......my season has come to a close and I wanted to share some experiences I had testing a set of viper clutches on my winder. I'm not trying to sell anything or skew anyone's thinking, but rather want to start a communication and pass along some of my findings and opinions..........make of them what you will.

First a little history:
I have an RTX SE 129 which I broke in by the book. For the first 300 miles I drove the sled exactly as stated in the manual and conducted break in procedures verbatim. From 300-500 miles I stretched the sled out a little more, but still took if fairly easy conducting a few short blasts up to 100mph. At exactly 499 miles, I performed the first service, consisting of oil/filter change, grease job and a general look over. One thing I noted was the excessive amount of belt dust in the clutch department. Having owned 6 RX-1s and 8 apexes spanning over 50k miles, I remember thinking, " Wow, there's 10k worth of belt dust, which has accumulated in only 500 miles." At any rate, I cleaned and inspected the clutches and did not find anything out of the ordinary. I took the belt (8JP) off and upon close examination determined that it still appeared like new.

With a complete service, and the engine now broken in, I figured it's time to start riding this thing normal. The next day I headed out and after riding about 5-6 miles of trails, I got on the rr bed and held it at a constant speed of 100mph. A few stretches I held it WOT for about 1/2 a mile, but would back off to 100mph again. At approximately 519 miles......KAPOW!!!! The 8JP snapped in half like someone cut it in half with a saw. The clutches were smoking hot and I was unable to keep my hand on them for more than a couple seconds. The conditions were as follows: Temperature was 8 degrees Fahrenheit and conditions were a little soft due to a 6 inch snowstorm from 2 days prior. My apex could have sustained these speeds under these conditions without issue!

I put an 8dn on which I had as a spare from my apex days. I ran the 8dn from 519 miles to 748 miles, but took it off because it was leaving traces of black snot on my clutches from slipping. I went back to an 8JP and noticed better run ability which consisted of an extra 100 rpm and 3-4 mph extra top speed. Although the 8JP leaves a lot of belt dust, the performance gain coupled with the lack of the black snot caused by the 8dn make it a better belt in my opinion.

From this point I'm riding the sled normally.....racing a few buddies and conducting approximately 15 or so WOT runs in the mid 120's over a span of a few weeks in hard/cold conditions. One day, I leave my house and ride tight trails between 30-50mph for approximately 3 miles. I cross a road, power up to 50mph for about 300 feet, then I see the trail straighten out, so I give a little more throttle to about 80 mph and KAPOW!!! Belt broke in half like someone cut it with a saw, however this time blew a hole in my belly pan. I went from 748miles to 1032 miles for a total of 284 miles. Upon inspection, I notice the clutches are a little warm, but nothing to write home about. I have no idea what caused this.

At approximately 1098 miles, my Buddy lent me a set of viper clutches he had lying around (both primary and secondary) which I mounted on my winder. The primary clutch consisted of stock 15.6 rollers my Dalton weights and factory spring, while the secondary was left stock. (Spring set at 70 degrees, straight 43 helix) The only thing not factory in the secondary was the addition of shims behind the helix for overdrive. At this point, I still have not changed my busted belly pan so I fully intend to beat this thing like a red headed step sister and I fully anticipate blowing this belt to smithereens within 100 miles. To make matters worse, I figure now is a great time to try higher gearing in an effort to exacerbate things. Therefore I gear my sled up from a 21 top gear to a 22 top gear.

From 1098 miles to 1684 miles (586 miles) I did dozens, upon dozens, upon dozens of WOT runs from 1-2 miles in length, many back to back, hitting speedo speeds in the high 120's to low 130's with a best of 132 mph. I was running this sled harder than ever and anticipated blowing a belt every time I threw a leg over it, but it would not happen. I thought perhaps something else was possibly causing me to have such good luck. At 1684 miles, I put my stock Winder clutches back on and went for my last ride of the season. At approximately 1720 miles (30 miles later) under what I consider normal riding conditions..........KAPOW!!!! Another belt broke in half like someone cut it with a saw. The most amount of miles I got on a belt this winter was 586, all accumulated with viper clutches under the most strenuous conditions. I felt this option was worth a serious look, so the next day, I went to see my Buddy that lent me the clutches and purchased them.

A few things I noticed:
Viper clutches run hot, but not as hot as the factory winder clutches.

Viper clutches are more consistent. Winder clutches turn 8800 one stretch, then 9050 another stretch, followed by 8850 a third stretch. Viper clutches would bang 8900 all the time.

Are the viper clutches faster in a drag race? I don't know as all the testing was done while riding alone. All I can compare are top speeds, which in my opinion seem to be in the ballpark.

Do I think viper clutches are better? Based on my experiences, I think so, but will continue to test another season to be sure.

Next year I plan to only run the viper clutches solely and hope to do some tuning and compare racing results. Although I did not have good luck using the 8dn belt with winder clutches, many viper owners swear by it. I hope to try 8dn again, this time utilizing viper clutches and I'm curious what the results will hold.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Very nice test work, I find this interesting.

I would have loved to know how the stock viper secondary would work with SW primary. It seems to me the only truly NEW clutch for SW is the roller secondary. Im sure the button secondary is more consistent with rpms, and very well might be what is happening with the belts....something about that roller is my guess.

Id love to hear if you blow a belt with viper secondary and SW primary.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Forgot to mention.....

did you have the rollers changed? Or did you never do anything with stock rollers in secondary?

You would have developed some flatspots by that mileage, and that could have been the belt cause.

 

[Snowaddict]

Interesting results. I would be willing to bet NOS-PRO has tested Viper clutches on his sidewinder as well. I would think if he found a major improvement with them, he would've posted it somewhere on TY as well. I could be wrong. Hopefully, he'll chime in.

 

[GlennM]

Im up to 3000km of hard riding. Did my break in religiously. Still on original belt, goes like hell.

Sent from my SM-T705W using Tapatalk

 

[PowderFalcon]

Great write up Fleecer. I often wondered about running the button style secondary as well. That's some good R&D and thanks for sharing. I only blew 1 belt this year which was at wide open throttle doing 126mph. The 8JP belt had around 1400kms on it. Second belt is still running strong with 1400kms on it as well. Having said that, I really like how you mentioned the consistency of the the RPM levels while using the button clutch. That was something i noticed that varied on the roller style too. Definitely something to consider trying next year. Cheers

 

[Fleecer]

Very nice test work, I find this interesting.

I would have loved to know how the stock viper secondary would work with SW primary. It seems to me the only truly NEW clutch for SW is the roller secondary. Im sure the button secondary is more consistent with rpms, and very well might be what is happening with the belts....something about that roller is my guess.

Id love to hear if you blow a belt with viper secondary and SW primary.

Dan

Definitely something I'll test next year!! I think there are a culmination of various issues coming into play here, but I think the largest issue lies in the rear secondary.

Yes I did upgrade stock secondary rollers to cat rollers at 499 mile service but forgot to mention. Had one with flat spot.

 

[MrSled]

Great write up!! Please keep us posted in this thread your findings next year.

 

[Riceburner]

Agreed . Great write up.
I was wondering why Yamaha messed with a proven product. [clutches]
I've put thousands of miles on a Super Charged RX 1 & my Turbo Apex with no issues & great performance out of the clutches.
Belts will last 2,000 miles but I change em at 1,200 now as part of regular maintenance.
Sometimes newer is not better !!!

 

[Yamadog]

Well I can tell you that the Viper clutches were not a proven product and still to this day require machining to achieve full shift out and eliminate spring coil bind. but when correctly set up will achieve many miles of consistent and non belt breaking miles. all of my miles have been on turbo'd vipers both the 14 and 15 which have both run the original 14 clutches. in the 1st year after the motor re-build and bump to 7 & 9 #'s of boost I was blowing belts every 100 to 150 miles and destroyed 6- 8jp's to the point that there was no recognizable pieces in the belly pan. Then Ulmer did his magic and I did another 1400 miles on the 14 xtx with 12 lbs of boost and over 260 hp no more broken belts (8dn). That season I ran 3 drag weekends on full boost and many hard lake races at WOT on very long pulls without a single problem. when the 14 was de-commissioned from trail use to go big as a drag sled (with over 4500 miles on it) all of the usable parts were swapped over to the 15 now has over 1500 additional miles on those parts. Other than regular cleaning the clutches have not been touched and the last 600 miles on the 15 have been run on mainly high boost at well over 265 hp and still running the original Carlisle ultra-max 8dn.

I am still confused on the reason Yamaha on top of creating a new motor package decided to change from the clutching that has almost worked for years instead of just taking the final step to simply fix the minor issue of spring bind.?????

 

[cannondale27]

My guess is they rode some of the 7000's that had good working Cat roller clutches and saw how smooth they were in comparison.

 

[STAIN]

I was wondering why Yamaha messed with a proven product. [clutches]

They went with the roller set up for the same reason they went with the push button reverse. Everyone else did, so all the Sno Mo magazines and other manufactures kept telling the consumer that Yamaha was "behind the times" . You don't need the roller set up any more than a 4 stroke needs electronic reverse. Ask the drag racers out there which is more consistent, roller or button secondary?
I also notice a lot of belt dust after 240 miles and 1 flat roller. I wonder if someone will introduce a new roller cover?

 

[snowbeast]

Very nice write up fleecer,i had thought about giving the viper secondary only clutch a try,but sense my sled now is up and running good,and it now has 730 very hard miles on boosted 270 hp on stock 8JP belt,well why mess with it,if its still doing ok,it does give more dust than I have ever seen with any sled,in any clutch set up,from poo,doo,cat or yammie,cant seem to see why this belt leaves so much dust,as it is only down .010 thou compared to new stock belt. My sled is a mess of dust,but other than belt appears very glazed,it is wearing good and even,top to bottom on sides.Now I don't know if we will get another chance to run sled next week,with warm rain than hot weather coming Tuesday maybe 70,not good for our 3-4 feet of snow pack we still have around our state.Oh I wanted to say,i am running stage 2 ulmer clutch kit,secondary has STM rollers and 38 straight STM helix and red/blk torsion cat spring,set at 0&3 allen wanted it at 0&1 but I missed that note,dont know if the 0&3 has been keeping the secondary from getting into fullshift or not,but backshift is awesome,and very quick upshift.

 

[STAIN]

I find this interesting. I have a set of Apex clutches on the shelf, the last set of clutches you could call "trouble free" from Yamaha. I am going over possible set ups for the Winder in my head for these clutches........

 

[**sj**]

I find this interesting. I have a set of Apex clutches on the shelf, the last set of clutches you could call "trouble free" from Yamaha. I am going over possible set ups for the Winder in my head for these clutches........

Ive got an apex primary and a viper secondary on the shelf..the apex secondary wont work I think without modding