idontknowjack
Extreme
Any risk in running 100LL in a sidewinder? Thinking of blending it with pump gas to increase octane levels.
KnappAttack
24X ISR World Drag Racing Champion
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2017 Sidewinder LTX-LE
It won’t make decent power. You are better off with a good octane booster or blending actual race fuel.
Avgas is made for low rpm airplanes, not hi performing, hi rpm turbo snowmobiles in the cold. Tommcat has dynoed avgas in the 998 and it reduces the HP pretty substantially.
Avgas is made for low rpm airplanes, not hi performing, hi rpm turbo snowmobiles in the cold. Tommcat has dynoed avgas in the 998 and it reduces the HP pretty substantially.
idontknowjack
Extreme
Thanks.
Joseph Levandoski
Expert
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We add a couple of gallons of AvGas in our sleds for the summer. It's not going to hurt anything during summer storage if that's all that you're looking to do - it's a non-ethanol fuel, so you won't suffer from any of the breakdown, sludge, or other issues that you may see from gasoline with ethanol.
100LL Av Gas has high levels of lead that is hard on O2 sensors if you have installed an AFR module and a closed loop system.
Mototown
TY 4 Stroke Guru
Are you running more than 20 psig boost ?
Or you guys get a lot of bad gas , my hurricane multi flash has only flashed 3-4 times over the last 3 years on 92-94 octane gas . When it does I turn it down until the next station. I mostly use esso or mobile.
Or you guys get a lot of bad gas , my hurricane multi flash has only flashed 3-4 times over the last 3 years on 92-94 octane gas . When it does I turn it down until the next station. I mostly use esso or mobile.
braapbraap
Newbie
Dont listen to half the crap you hear about av gas ..
Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...
My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.
Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.
In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.
The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.
AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.
AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.
I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.
Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.
Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.
You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.
The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.
AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.
Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.
AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 100, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 100 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.
Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.
Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.
Bottom line... use the most consistent fuel you can find and create horsepower by moving as much air as possible though the combustion chamber.
I have no reason to be bias here as I have moved on to much greener pastures. See you on the race course.
Good Luck,
Steve Poole ........... I have ran it for years and years in an rx1 with a 2871 , 86ar at 16 to 18 lbs hard mountain riding and long long chutes at whistler no problemo and still ride this machine to date good luck
Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...
My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.
Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.
In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.
The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.
AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.
AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.
I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.
Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.
Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.
You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.
The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.
AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.
Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.
AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 100, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 100 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.
Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.
Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.
Bottom line... use the most consistent fuel you can find and create horsepower by moving as much air as possible though the combustion chamber.
I have no reason to be bias here as I have moved on to much greener pastures. See you on the race course.
Good Luck,
Steve Poole ........... I have ran it for years and years in an rx1 with a 2871 , 86ar at 16 to 18 lbs hard mountain riding and long long chutes at whistler no problemo and still ride this machine to date good luck
Last edited:
yamamarc
TY 4 Stroke God
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Interesting read thanks for sharing.
What is your experience with octane boosters vs mixing straight up race gas?
KnappAttack
24X ISR World Drag Racing Champion
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2017 Sidewinder LTX-LE
I'll listen to Tommcat since he actually dynoed the Av-Gas on the 998 thanks...
As you can see below from the graphs, the engine will run yes, It just does not make the kind of power pump fuel does on the Hurricane 270 tune. It's clearly down on power by a good margin.
Tommcat shares good stuff on his Facebook page and I really wish he was here on TY. I understand why he is not however.
Tommcat Performance
October 28, 2020 ·https://www.facebook.com/tommcatperformance#
I have said multiple times that we would get around to comparing Avgas to pump fuel on the dyno, and we finally found a reason to do so.
Here is a comparison on a Sidewinder with a basic tune, with avgas vs 93 octane, 10% ethanol pump gas. No other changes were made, strictly the fuel swap.
Bottom line is avgas, top line is pump gas.
https://www.facebook.com/tommcatperformance#
https://www.facebook.com/tommcatperformance#
Tommcat Performance
October 29, 2020 ·https://www.facebook.com/tommcatperformance/posts/2025197307671662?__cft__[0]=AZXI913yJiNtC7jPZK8Kvfc259YOkLeYXBg8vA-ZkSxf89iVB3Z_e70CUOVcFifsxROP-ON453S34jJHL2DU4wLF0hQcQ001GYoBRwemmqlTPlpNA3yirmsSmtUxtBKSkuQ&__tn__=,O,P-R
same session we tested the avgas on, just with more issues fixed along the way. it was a long day.
bottom line is with the avgas, next up is strictly a switch to pump gas, as seen on the previous post.
next line up was changing spark plugs. we removed CR9E that were damaged, from what i believe was when someone gapped them and damaged the center electrodes on 2 plugs. we installed our preferred CR9EIX gapped at .030
final line is after fixing multiple boost leaks.
these are all on a Hurricane 270 tune
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All great info.
I suspect a couple reasons the AV gas was down on power were:
-the engine with the Hurricane tune only requires 93 Octane ,or less, to run properly and safely . 100LL Av gas is highly refined ,controlled , has an absolute minimum of 100 octane, and can be as high as 110 octane. It has been reported and proven for years that using fuel with higher octane then you require for you particular engine will always make less power. I think Tomcat has just proven this theory. I suspect that VP C12 would have given similar results to the 100LL AV gas's hp output.
-93 Octane pump fuel is oxygenated to some degree so it is contributing to good hp numbers.
Now if the boost levels of a particular engine required 100 octane to perform properly the 100LL or VP C12 would perform well.
NYTurbo
TY 4 Stroke God
Really the point here is if your motor was tuned around 91 , 100 Octane fuel is a waste of money and loss of power.
idontknowjack
Extreme
The whole purpose for my post/question was to see if I could use AvGas (which is readily available to me) to blend with lower octane fuel, to increase octane to a level that my tune requires. AvGas is way cheaper than octane booster. I never planned on running straight AvGas. I changed my mind on going with one straight tune and got the multi-map bundle so if I can only find 87 octane I can tune it down without causing damage.
braapbraap
Newbie
Exactly !! Each and every set up will come with a certain octane requirement stick too it for the most power and safety
braapbraap
Newbie
If i had to i would personally mix a quality fuel with pump fuel instead without hesitation
