Winder or thundercat or skidoo 900 180hp

[Apex2007se]

Looking at new sled for 2022. Realize might be out of luck for this year, but getting new sled when I can. Ride groomed trails, currently on a 2007 apex 121. is Yamaha/cat dependable if left close to stock? I realize that skidoo will be down on hp but will still be plenty fast for me. How do they compare ride wise and handling wise?

 

[KnappAttack]

A 900 turbo Doo is obviously not as fast, rides good in the rear suspension, the front rides far worse than a Procross and does not handle nearly as well as a Procross. The Doo is more ready to ride for more miles as far as reliability. The Procross needs it’s weak points addressed. I wouldn’t give up my Winder for a 900 turbo Doo no way no how.

 

[DennyTuna]

I'm with knapp on this as well.

 

[Upstater57]

Ditto with Mr. Knapp

 

[number1kyster]

If you like to ride without turning wrenches, I'd go with the 900T.

If you don't mind addressing a few things before each season, the 998 is a great sled.

 

[Fox 2]

I totally agree with Knapp, I get 2 new sleds every year , I have bought sidewinder since it came out then the SRX for me and my wife drives a 900 T . The only problems I ever had was every year the chain case leaks and I had one turbo go , other than that it’s bullet proof . We switch back and forth and in the rough stuff she like the doo . On the smooth she really likes the SRX

 

[SledFreak]

If the sled is left stock, then the SRX or TCAT is a no maintenance sled. IMO, the TCAT has better gearing, which contributes to be acceleration for trail riding and the clutching (again IMO is better, then the SRX). However, the SRX is better looking, then the TCAT and 900T. You will hear a lot of issues on the internet on the Procross, but left completely stock, the issues are NOT really there. I have spoke with a lot of Cat and Yamaha dealers and they don't typically get any of the issues that you hear a lot on the internet! I am not saying that you should NOT do any preventative measures, but IMO, not all are a must!. I also agree with Mike Knapp, the Procross will out handle the DOO easily and the rmotion on the DOO is better, but IMO, its not by much! The QS3 shocks are a really good shock.

Now, if you are going to turn up the boost, then yes, you will need to do some wrenching. There are a lot of stock sleds out there with 10,000 + miles and all just gas and go. Just my 2 cents..

 

[SumpBuster]

It just seems like the procross can be ridden fast on trail will minimal effort, and the smooth deceiving power from the turbo...really hard to beat, overall, imo. A truly landmark great snowmobile.

 

[KnappAttack]

If the sled is left stock, then the SRX or TCAT is a no maintenance sled. IMO, the TCAT has better gearing, which contributes to be acceleration for trail riding and the clutching (again IMO is better, then the SRX). However, the SRX is better looking, then the TCAT and 900T. You will hear a lot of issues on the internet on the Procross, but left completely stock, the issues are NOT really there. I have spoke with a lot of Cat and Yamaha dealers and they don't typically get any of the issues that you hear a lot on the internet! I am not saying that you should NOT do any preventative measures, but IMO, not all are a must!. I also agree with Mike Knapp, the Procross will out handle the DOO easily and the rmotion on the DOO is better, but IMO, its not by much! The QS3 shocks are a really good shock.

Now, if you are going to turn up the boost, then yes, you will need to do some wrenching. There are a lot of stock sleds out there with 10,000 + miles and all just gas and go. Just my 2 cents..

I would not agree with this. You are forgetting about the Top gear bushing needing addressed seasonally, the chain case tensioner screws needing welding and the roll over valve bypassed or addressed, now they even dump it into the airbox so it drools oil worn on to the clutch. Also needing addressing is the loose fit of the front drive shaft to bearing fit on the ProCross, it flat out needs the BOP wedge fit in it from new to keep from wearing out the front shaft. Year after year they just seem to forget to redesign the dang thing conveniently. Perhaps because they don't have an engineer left in the building. LOL! We also can't forget to take apart the oil tank and put a good layer of silicone in it so it doesn't leak even after the ROV is addressed.

No such issues with the Doo. The Doo is gas and ride, the problem areas I spoke about above need addressed on the ProCross for reliability to be trouble free.

So the mechanically inclined that can deal with the poor engineering on Cat/Yamaha end will have a reliable machine. Either way the ProCross is the easiest machine to ride the fastest and handle the best.

 

[SAB1]

Agree with Knapp here. Even left stock there are things to do. every off season needs wrenching.

 

[KnappAttack]

Bottom line for the difference in machines is this.

The Doo is wheelie happy, the skis don't like to say on the ground when accelerating. Also this is a detriment in the corners, it always wants to lift the inside ski. It just plain does not handle as well as the ProCross. It will not stay planted. It's slow in stock form, tuned it feels almost as fast as a STOCK Winder because the speedo is so inaccurate and the skis always off the ground, but even tuned, they just are not quite as fast as a stock Winder. Close but no cigar.

The ProCross is planted and handles VERY well, its not twitchy in the bumps like the Doo is, has a better throttle feel, more power, better ride up front by a long shot, Ergos better on the ProCross, grip heaters and seat heater works very well, Doo does not even come with a seat heater on the turbos.

I ride and tune them all up, and honestly love the Doo four-strokes, even been accused of talking up the Doo too much, and I'll continue to speak well of them, as they are very reliable in the four-stroke lineup, I would go as far as to call them even better than the pure Yamaha's ever were for reliability, they are lightweight and fun, always putting a smile on your face, but they just are not as good in the ride and handling department as the ProCross. It takes very little for time and money to make the ProCross just as reliable, but the little things need addressed to get the ProCross there, once you get the few mods done the 998, is the far superior product, the Doo guys will never admit it however, the problem is they either don't know how to make the 998 reliable or they have never owned one, many just internet experts or know it alls.

I've owned really good 1200's both NA and turbo versions, the 1200 can be far faster than the Winders, but still the same downfalls, they just don't handle and ride as good as the Winders and the egos are laking in comparison to the ProCross. One ride on the winder and I knew I had to have one. The Winder is better out of the crate than any Doo I've ever thrown a leg over in any size, year configuration, or any setup anyone could throw at it.

 

[Kuzzy]

My advice for what it is worth. Pick one and don't look back. You can find any opinion for or against on the internet anyways. In this day and age, if something is crap, it doesn't survive, so everything is good as long as you pick something that suits you instead of how you think people will view you.

 

[STAIN]

Agree with Knapp here. Even left stock there are things to do. every off season needs wrenching.

That can be said for every sled.
I believe the membership here is more inclined to try to make their sleds perfect, which is a good thing.
There are many Procross sleds that have never had any of these issues. There are some that have all of them.
Heck, as a riding group, we have put a collective 45k miles on Procross 4 strokes and nobody I ride with has ever had a roll over valve problem or had the tensioner screws fall out. Upper gear? 2, lower bearing? 1 @ 10k . Every sled has been tuned or turboed.
Every sled needs some sort of attention to keep it trouble free.

Remember, with a Sidewinder/Viper you get the support of this forum.
There are some smart folks that post on this site, which cant be said for other forums!!!

 

[Joe_not_exotic]

Knapp is a pretty good source of information. I will say this though.

His interpretation of the ski lift and being wheelie heavy on the 900 is from the older suspension. Guys who like it call it playfulness. I don't like it because it takes away from performance in my opinion. Mr. Knapp apparently agrees with that.

However, ski Doo released the rmotionX suspension last year that all but eliminates any ski lift. The sled no longer wheelies unless you make a designed adjustment to the rear suspension. Kudos to skidoo for another nice piece of engineering there as you aren't boxed in on either side of that argument. It handles much better in the corners. So much so that guys complain it's boring now in the factory setting.

Ski Doo also released smart shox in the snowmobile world this year. We have yet to use it on snow but it has worked very well in dirt. And it should be a pretty sizeable improvement over the QS3. Because it's a live suspension that helps with cornering and take off even more. I believe it changes 50 times per second. Part of it's adjustment is to stiffen the outside ski in corners to keep the inside ski down to keep the sled on rails.

I agree that the pro cross chassis handles great in tight twisting woods. It was absolutely better than the rmotion front end. Many ski Doo guys won't admit that. I think it's bias. I just don't think the difference in trail handling will be very tangible here anymore.

Not to mention the dash on the 998t is a little behind the times. Hopefully the anticipated new dash in the near future catapults them into the argument, maybe even the front runner.

Theoretically I think the only real advantage of the 998t will be aftermarket power and it's great throttle. I also think guys are being a little naive about the HP the little ace will make from factory. Many guys use hurricane to flash. Hurricane claims the 998t makes 204hp from factory. Hurricane claimed the little 900 ace made 160hp at 11psi from factory and 205hp with their 16psi flash. The new 900r makes 17.4 psi with a bigger wheel pushing more air than the old 900 the 998t is being compared to here. It would be surprising if hurricane doesn't say they are making around 215hp factory from the 900r. If they don't say 215, then I question the other results. Another 1.5 psi of boost on a bigger wheel than their 205 tune will mean more power.

I had a 900t XRS. It was ok. I didn't like all the stuff mentioned on here by Mike (plus the throttle which probably hasn't been talked about enough). If they didn't make the changes they did the past two years, I would have probably climbed over a tcat in 2022.

But with the changes made and considering all of this information, I concluded the juice wasn't worth the squeeze on the pro cross chassis. I ordered the mach Z. It has nothing to do with yamaha's end of the bargain. I gave up aftermarket HP and a great throttle. Hopefully the throttle on the 900r doesn't ruin the sled. But ski Doo is constantly tweaking and changing things with their engineering. I feel like cat took the "set it and forget it" route with this chassis. Known problems that can be easily engineered out that they won't spend the money to fix.

 

[KnappAttack]

Knapp is a pretty good source of information. I will say this though.

His interpretation of the ski lift and being wheelie heavy on the 900 is from the older suspension. Guys who like it call it playfulness. I don't like it because it takes away from performance in my opinion. Mr. Knapp apparently agrees with that.

However, ski Doo released the rmotionX suspension last year that all but eliminates any ski lift. The sled no longer wheelies unless you make a designed adjustment to the rear suspension. Kudos to skidoo for another nice piece of engineering there as you aren't boxed in on either side of that argument. It handles much better in the corners. So much so that guys complain it's boring now in the factory setting.

Ski Doo also released smart shox in the snowmobile world this year. We have yet to use it on snow but it has worked very well in dirt. And it should be a pretty sizeable improvement over the QS3. Because it's a live suspension that helps with cornering and take off even more. I believe it changes 50 times per second. Part of it's adjustment is to stiffen the outside ski in corners to keep the inside ski down to keep the sled on rails.

I agree that the pro cross chassis handles great in tight twisting woods. It was absolutely better than the rmotion front end. Many ski Doo guys won't admit that. I think it's bias. I just don't think the difference in trail handling will be very tangible here anymore.

Not to mention the dash on the 998t is a little behind the times. Hopefully the anticipated new dash in the near future catapults them into the argument, maybe even the front runner.

Theoretically I think the only real advantage of the 998t will be aftermarket power and it's great throttle. I also think guys are being a little naive about the HP the little ace will make from factory. Many guys use hurricane to flash. Hurricane claims the 998t makes 204hp from factory. Hurricane claimed the little 900 ace made 160hp at 11psi from factory and 205hp with their 16psi flash. The new 900r makes 17.4 psi with a bigger wheel pushing more air than the old 900 the 998t is being compared to here. It would be surprising if hurricane doesn't say they are making around 215hp factory from the 900r. If they don't say 215, then I question the other results. Another 1.5 psi of boost on a bigger wheel than their 205 tune will mean more power.

I had a 900t XRS. It was ok. I didn't like all the stuff mentioned on here by Mike (plus the throttle which probably hasn't been talked about enough). If they didn't make the changes they did the past two years, I would have probably climbed over a tcat in 2022.

But with the changes made and considering all of this information, I concluded the juice wasn't worth the squeeze on the pro cross chassis. I ordered the mach Z. It has nothing to do with yamaha's end of the bargain. I gave up aftermarket HP and a great throttle. Hopefully the throttle on the 900r doesn't ruin the sled. But ski Doo is constantly tweaking and changing things with their engineering. I feel like cat took the "set it and forget it" route with this chassis. Known problems that can be easily engineered out that they won't spend the money to fix.

I would agree with most of posted above, however when you tune the 900 even with the "new" suspension, it's still be wheelie happy and the front end is still not up to par on the light Doo. IMO the "new" suspension wasn't much of an improvement.

If I was older and didn't want to "mess" with a sled, or just a gas and go guy who rode a little slower, the new 900 Doo would be it, but I'd still cuss them out for not doing more with the front end to improve its ride and handling. IMO they are in third place with the what I'd call "poor" front end, and I think there is no excuse for that. The bump steer on the Doo is inexcusable. They need to do better on the front end plain and simple. Also, they missed it on the gauge on the Doo too, its pretty poor and the Doo guys will tell you that, I feel they took a step backwards vs the old Doo deluxe gauge, along with their continuing iTic throttle issues as has been said, its ongoing.

One thing I like about the Doo is how light it is, very easy to move around on the stand in the shop, and you can feel it lightness on the trails too, not in the steering because the Winder feels light in the steering, but it just feels like, and you know you are riding a lighter sled. I like the way the Winder feels in comparison, the Winder just feels more stable and like you are piloting a real substantial powerhouse, compared to the 900 turbo. The Winder to me feels far more planted, better ride overall and provides and exudes much more of a high end powerhouse can do anything feel.

I don't know what the stock power will be on the Mach, I don't see it being 215, but maybe, I think I'd expect closer to 205 or so. If your fine with that great, but it will not have the potential of the 998 for 300HP tuned on the stock turbo that is certain, and I like the 300HP potential. The Doo will be a fine sled, but just not quite the ProCross in my eyes. I even toyed with buying one just to try it and as a second sled for the wife to ride, but I've ridden enough of them to know I really don't like it as well as the Winder. I have friends that have purchased 900 turbos only to go back to the old 1200 or a different sled entirely. We all used to ride Doo's it seems and can honestly say the 998 is the sled of choice for the majority around here right now, it seems all my buds ride them and they are everywhere here. Only one bud actually owns a 900T anymore that we ride with, he even ordered a new one. The Doo is much more rare to see in the wild that is certain.