Yamaha motors

[Vmax]

Yamaha had the two stroke industry by the go nads from the 70's to early 20's, superior two strokers bar none.
Why did they phase them out?

 

[superfan75]

I believe they felt with the incoming epa regulations that a 2 stroke would never pass so they developed 4 stroke sleds. I personally can't see myself riding anything but a 4 stroke so I'm okay with it. Although they lost a lot of buyers who wanted lighter 2 stroke sleds.

 

[pdiddy]

X2 What Superfan75 said. And they were mostly right in that 2-strokes got leaned out to the max and their reliability went downhill fast. Bottom line is Yamaha won't tell you why they do anything or what they'll do next. Hang on, I think it's going to be a bumpy ride!

 

[jjmoneysauce]

Who knows, maybe they are sitting on next-generation advanced prototype motors and bodies that will all but dominate motor engineering for the next good decade. The engineering project cycle is probably a few years in duration. If they're as forward thinking as I would expect, they already probably have a few platforms in various stages of progress nearing production-ready, and will feed them into the market over the next few years. I still scratch my head about the early move to 4 strokes, but I would imagine that a big outfit like Yamaha probably has some reasonably astute folks in their product development engineering team who probably have a clear vision of where the products are headed.

Someone else mentioned somewhere that they keep quiet for a good reason; I'm inclined to agree. Why would you publicly disclose the details of your strategic direction so that everyone, including your market competitors, saw all of your cards? That would be kind of an "Ooh, shiny new thing!" type of strategy. I'd expect something like that from McPolaris, complete with a new tinfoil chassis and an 875 motor or some other trinket, but not from Yamaha.

 

[blueironranger]

They are one of the few companies that owm a DFI 2 stroke system and they still moved away from them even in the outboard boat motor segment. The Polaris and Arctic cat systems aren't real DFI systems like Skidoo has, Yamaha HPDI is. The real reason for the Doo/Poo 850's is the fact that they will NEED the added displacement in a few years to pass emission and maintain "800 class" power ratings. Watch the poo/doo guys cry in when the HP ratings drop in a few years to keep those engines alive with even a leaner fuel/oil mix.

 

[jjmoneysauce]

A guy I know recently pointed out a friend's Poo in his driveway, and mentioned that it had blown out 4 motors. 4!!! It only had a couple thousand miles on it. Warranty or not, that is horrible performance.

 

[Handy]

Personally, me being mainly a trail rider I love the 4 stroke sleds. But I have been looking at the outboard specs. I see what Yamaha has done to the weight of their outboards and realize it is only a matter of time and the weight difference will not be there. For instance in 1978 a basic Evinrude 115 HP 2 stroke weighed 384 lbs. The new Yamaha 4 stroke 115 HP weighs 377 lbs. while Honda 115 HP still weighs in at almost 500 lbs. All engines are 20" shaft length. The new Evinrude 115 HP weighs in at 390 lbs. much the same as the 1978 Evinrude. I am now waiting for this technology to come over to the sled side.

 

[earthling]

I would like to see something truly different. 6-stroke triple, variable vale timing, cam-less valve train, variable injector technology.. something that will push the state of the art definitively ahead.

 

[74Nitro]

I think one of the reasons was reliability which then led to warranty claims also, which reduced profits for Yamaha. I still remember back in 05 when they brought out the Vector. That was the first year(at least in Canada) that Yamaha did not have a single engine failure for the season.

 

[earthling]

I think one of the reasons was reliability which then led to warranty claims also, which reduced profits for Yamaha. I still remember back in 05 when they brought out the Vector. That was the first year(at least in Canada) that Yamaha did not have a single engine failure for the season.

Warranty claims make money for the dealer, they are poor margin (poor profit) centers for the manufacturer, this is different than other industries where you have to pay support annually, then it can turn into a profit center. The manufacturer gets some benefit from increased scale of production when carrying warranty items but its a fine line between keeping inventory on hand to service warranty and getting stuck with excess inventory. Typically the carrying costs are too high for a great margin (increased inventory costs plus supply chain). Bottom line is that the value you bring in by marginally increasing manufacturing capacity is rarely worth the cost of cash (how much cash it ties up) and the inventory liabilities that it creates. Yamaha did the right thing by making reliable technology, they may have rode that train too long. *Ideally* you create a reliable product with predictable lifecycles based on either product wear or technology refresh cycles with that suffer no substantial warranty claims. You then refresh the technology often enough to keep capturing market share while your used products in the market propagate into the lower end of the market filling a previously intentionally inaccessible market void (cheap sleds).

 

[kinger]

I think 2 strokes will get banned in time no matter how clean they are. Also would not surprise me to see catalytic converters on everything as well just like a car. There is a reason Doo is going into 4 strokes. There is a new study that even 'clean' 2 strokes leave oil residue that pollutes the water in the spring melt. Obviously lots of politics will take place but I think the writing is on the wall and if that happens no one will argue which is the best 4 stroke engine manufacturer (Yamaha's strategy). The new 998 turbo is brilliant move, and not having to devote any resources to chassis development is what helped fund that motor (AC deal). To me it seems smart to of them to focus on what they are good at (motors) and hedge a bet that 2S will eventually be banned.

 

[SumpBuster]

I can't knock my old ski doo rotary valvers, those 583 and 521''s were overachievers. At least mine were. I didn't worry about anything size for size 2 stroke-wise. And totally reliable. Suspensions? PRS Sucked, first SC10'S too...funny how Yamaha now has the premier engines, and 4 stroke too... but ski doo is a suspension leader...how times change!

 

[Yamadog]

We'll look at Europe they forced everyone to jump onto the diesel train in the 50's and 60's and now that manufacturer's have dumped trillions into research it is up to local governments to ban them on their streets. Same for the 2 stroke ultimately. Almost all of the early Saab's we're 2 stroke but early regs wiped them out.

I'm waiting for the Tesla Yamaha merger - quiet, fast and only 3000#'s oh and the batteries won't hold a charge below 32 deg F

 

[CaptCaper]

I think 2 strokes will get banned in time no matter how clean they are. Also would not surprise me to see catalytic converters on everything as well just like a car. There is a reason Doo is going into 4 strokes. There is a new study that even 'clean' 2 strokes leave oil residue that pollutes the water in the spring melt. Obviously lots of politics will take place but I think the writing is on the wall and if that happens no one will argue which is the best 4 stroke engine manufacturer (Yamaha's strategy). The new 998 turbo is brilliant move, and not having to devote any resources to chassis development is what helped fund that motor (AC deal). To me it seems smart to of them to focus on what they are good at (motors) and hedge a bet that 2S will eventually be banned.

Good points.. I for one can't stand the smell of them anymore on the trails.. smell lingers in the helmet for a while...especially when the packs of them are on the trails.

 

[Yamajon1]

Warranty claims make money for the dealer, they are poor margin (poor profit) centers for the manufacturer, this is different than other industries where you have to pay support annually, then it can turn into a profit center. The manufacturer gets some benefit from increased scale of production when carrying warranty items but its a fine line between keeping inventory on hand to service warranty and getting stuck with excess inventory. Typically the carrying costs are too high for a great margin (increased inventory costs plus supply chain). Bottom line is that the value you bring in by marginally increasing manufacturing capacity is rarely worth the cost of cash (how much cash it ties up) and the inventory liabilities that it creates. Yamaha did the right thing by making reliable technology, they may have rode that train too long. *Ideally* you create a reliable product with predictable lifecycles based on either product wear or technology refresh cycles with that suffer no substantial warranty claims. You then refresh the technology often enough to keep capturing market share while your used products in the market propagate into the lower end of the market filling a previously intentionally inaccessible market void (cheap sleds).

Warranty claims are not money makers for dealers. That parts mark up is gone and warranty labor times are typically 40% less then that same job pays if it's none warranty.