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Yamaha motors

Discussion in 'General Yamaha Discussion' started by Vmax, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. Vmax

    Vmax Veteran

    Messages:
    37
    Location:
    Lasalle
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    1997 Vmax 700
    Yamaha had the two stroke industry by the go nads from the 70's to early 20's, superior two strokers bar none.
    Why did they phase them out?
     
  2.  
  3. superfan75

    superfan75 VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    661
    Location:
    West Topsham Vermont
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    RX Warrior
    I believe they felt with the incoming epa regulations that a 2 stroke would never pass so they developed 4 stroke sleds. I personally can't see myself riding anything but a 4 stroke so I'm okay with it. Although they lost a lot of buyers who wanted lighter 2 stroke sleds.
     
  4. pdiddy

    pdiddy Expert

    Messages:
    235
    Location:
    Southern Maine
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    2012 Yamaha L-TX; 2011 Apex; 2010 Vector LTX GT;
    X2 What Superfan75 said. And they were mostly right in that 2-strokes got leaned out to the max and their reliability went downhill fast. Bottom line is Yamaha won't tell you why they do anything or what they'll do next. Hang on, I think it's going to be a bumpy ride!
     
    greatwhite89 likes this.
  5. jjmoneysauce

    jjmoneysauce VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    55
    Location:
    Canada
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    2018 VK540
    And some Bravos
    And some Enticers
    Who knows, maybe they are sitting on next-generation advanced prototype motors and bodies that will all but dominate motor engineering for the next good decade. The engineering project cycle is probably a few years in duration. If they're as forward thinking as I would expect, they already probably have a few platforms in various stages of progress nearing production-ready, and will feed them into the market over the next few years. I still scratch my head about the early move to 4 strokes, but I would imagine that a big outfit like Yamaha probably has some reasonably astute folks in their product development engineering team who probably have a clear vision of where the products are headed.

    Someone else mentioned somewhere that they keep quiet for a good reason; I'm inclined to agree. Why would you publicly disclose the details of your strategic direction so that everyone, including your market competitors, saw all of your cards? That would be kind of an "Ooh, shiny new thing!" type of strategy. I'd expect something like that from McPolaris, complete with a new tinfoil chassis and an 875 motor or some other trinket, but not from Yamaha.
     
  6. blueironranger

    blueironranger TY 4 Stroke God

    Messages:
    1,617
    Location:
    Iron Range MN
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    2014 Viper XTX
    2009 Phazer MTX
    They are one of the few companies that owm a DFI 2 stroke system and they still moved away from them even in the outboard boat motor segment. The Polaris and Arctic cat systems aren't real DFI systems like Skidoo has, Yamaha HPDI is. The real reason for the Doo/Poo 850's is the fact that they will NEED the added displacement in a few years to pass emission and maintain "800 class" power ratings. Watch the poo/doo guys cry in when the HP ratings drop in a few years to keep those engines alive with even a leaner fuel/oil mix.
     
  7. jjmoneysauce

    jjmoneysauce VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    55
    Location:
    Canada
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    2018 VK540
    And some Bravos
    And some Enticers
    A guy I know recently pointed out a friend's Poo in his driveway, and mentioned that it had blown out 4 motors. 4!!! It only had a couple thousand miles on it. Warranty or not, that is horrible performance.
     
    74Nitro and Dusty Dan like this.
  8. Handy

    Handy Expert

    Messages:
    318
    Location:
    Anola Manitoba
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    1983 Bravo, 1988 XLV, 1991 Pazer II, 2005 Vector, 2006 Apex Super Charged, 2007 Phazer
    Personally, me being mainly a trail rider I love the 4 stroke sleds. But I have been looking at the outboard specs. I see what Yamaha has done to the weight of their outboards and realize it is only a matter of time and the weight difference will not be there. For instance in 1978 a basic Evinrude 115 HP 2 stroke weighed 384 lbs. The new Yamaha 4 stroke 115 HP weighs 377 lbs. while Honda 115 HP still weighs in at almost 500 lbs. All engines are 20" shaft length. The new Evinrude 115 HP weighs in at 390 lbs. much the same as the 1978 Evinrude. I am now waiting for this technology to come over to the sled side.
     
    Mountaintech and greatwhite89 like this.
  9. earthling

    earthling VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Uxbridge, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    Yamaha 2006 ATTAK
    I would like to see something truly different. 6-stroke triple, variable vale timing, cam-less valve train, variable injector technology.. something that will push the state of the art definitively ahead.
     
    Nemesis6 and InRBigness like this.
  10. 74Nitro

    74Nitro Expert

    Messages:
    263
    Location:
    Dublin Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    2018 Sidewinder XTX 141
    I think one of the reasons was reliability which then led to warranty claims also, which reduced profits for Yamaha. I still remember back in 05 when they brought out the Vector. That was the first year(at least in Canada) that Yamaha did not have a single engine failure for the season.
     
  11. earthling

    earthling VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Uxbridge, Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Snowmobile:
    Yamaha 2006 ATTAK
    Warranty claims make money for the dealer, they are poor margin (poor profit) centers for the manufacturer, this is different than other industries where you have to pay support annually, then it can turn into a profit center. The manufacturer gets some benefit from increased scale of production when carrying warranty items but its a fine line between keeping inventory on hand to service warranty and getting stuck with excess inventory. Typically the carrying costs are too high for a great margin (increased inventory costs plus supply chain). Bottom line is that the value you bring in by marginally increasing manufacturing capacity is rarely worth the cost of cash (how much cash it ties up) and the inventory liabilities that it creates. Yamaha did the right thing by making reliable technology, they may have rode that train too long. *Ideally* you create a reliable product with predictable lifecycles based on either product wear or technology refresh cycles with that suffer no substantial warranty claims. You then refresh the technology often enough to keep capturing market share while your used products in the market propagate into the lower end of the market filling a previously intentionally inaccessible market void (cheap sleds).
     
  12. kinger

    kinger VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    6,050
    Location:
    Clear Lake, IA
    I think 2 strokes will get banned in time no matter how clean they are. Also would not surprise me to see catalytic converters on everything as well just like a car. There is a reason Doo is going into 4 strokes. There is a new study that even 'clean' 2 strokes leave oil residue that pollutes the water in the spring melt. Obviously lots of politics will take place but I think the writing is on the wall and if that happens no one will argue which is the best 4 stroke engine manufacturer (Yamaha's strategy). The new 998 turbo is brilliant move, and not having to devote any resources to chassis development is what helped fund that motor (AC deal). To me it seems smart to of them to focus on what they are good at (motors) and hedge a bet that 2S will eventually be banned.
     
    superfan75, marc001 and 74Nitro like this.
  13. SumpBuster

    SumpBuster TY 4 Stroke Master

    Messages:
    1,322
    Location:
    Carlisle, NY now. Maui, or big Island soon!!
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    06 Apex RTX 05 Vector.
    I can't knock my old ski doo rotary valvers, those 583 and 521''s were overachievers. At least mine were. I didn't worry about anything size for size 2 stroke-wise. And totally reliable. Suspensions? PRS Sucked, first SC10'S too...funny how Yamaha now has the premier engines, and 4 stroke too... but ski doo is a suspension leader...how times change!
     
  14. Yamadog

    Yamadog Lifetime Member Lifetime VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    5,294
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    We'll look at Europe they forced everyone to jump onto the diesel train in the 50's and 60's and now that manufacturer's have dumped trillions into research it is up to local governments to ban them on their streets. Same for the 2 stroke ultimately. Almost all of the early Saab's we're 2 stroke but early regs wiped them out.

    I'm waiting for the Tesla Yamaha merger - quiet, fast and only 3000#'s oh and the batteries won't hold a charge below 32 deg F:o|
     
    kinger likes this.
  15. CaptCaper

    CaptCaper VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    1,998
    Location:
    Northern N.H.
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    2016 RS Vector XTX 1.25 Lug wifes..2013 RS Vector LTX.. 2003 600 VMax Past Machines 3-2007 Attaks 1-2010 Vector LTX.. sorry no Stinkdoos or poo's cats.
    Good points.. I for one can't stand the smell of them anymore on the trails.. smell lingers in the helmet for a while...especially when the packs of them are are..
     
  16. Yamajon1

    Yamajon1 VIP Member VIP Member

    Messages:
    51
    Location:
    Oshkosh Wisconsin
    Country:
    USA
    Snowmobile:
    2016 SR Viper RTX DX
    Former Yamaha sleds:
    2004 Venture 600 2002 SX Viper 700
    1997 Vmax 600 SX 1994 Vmax 600 1989 Exciter
    1986 Vmax 540 1986 Phaser 1981 SRX 440
    Warranty claims are not money makers for dealers. That parts mark up is gone and warranty labor times are typically 40% less then that same job pays if it's none warranty.
     
    InRBigness likes this.

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