Stigapex
Suspended
I have a friend with a broken 2011 engine in an Apex. He can get hold of a 2008 engine. Will it fit, have anyone done this ?
Do he need to move many parts over from the 2011 engine to the 2008 engine. Stator and rotor maybe, any sensors; knock sensor and cam position sensor
How will the 2008 head work with exhaust valve system ?
Someone have any ideas ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Do he need to move many parts over from the 2011 engine to the 2008 engine. Stator and rotor maybe, any sensors; knock sensor and cam position sensor
How will the 2008 head work with exhaust valve system ?
Someone have any ideas ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm doing this right now. Don't have time for a full response ATM but will give you a better answer later this afternoon.
I haven't completed this project yet, but I can point out a few of the key differences between the 2006-10 engine and the 2011+ and how I'm addressing them.
Along with the new cam profiles in 2011, yamaha also enlarged the size of the exhaust port (on the head itself) as well as the 4 exhaust headers that fasten to the head. Everything is about 3mm larger. You can't use the '06-10 headers because of the different diameter of the old header to existing exhaust. Unfortunately, the bolt spacing is also 3mm off (+3mm center-center) on the 2011+ head & headers. You can't bolt the 'new' headers to the 'old' head as they come from Yamaha, but by elongating the bolt holes 1.5mm (towards the center) they will install without any further issue.
The cam trigger is a 7.85mm notch on both the old & new exhaust cam. I'm using the 2011 valve cover & sensor and expect no issues.
The part number is the same for the '06-10 and '11+ cranks. The stators and rotors do have different part numbers. I pulled the '11 rotor and installed it on the '06-10 crank without issue, and will be using the 2011 stator. From the ECU's perspective, the '06-10 engine is identical to the 2011+ now.
The new Apex engine has a boss on the case for the factory knock sensor. The previous generation did not have this. I have a custom starter bolt now that will still hold the starter in place, but also has a threaded boss to accept the knock sensor. I have no way of knowing if the specific harmonic the sensor is looking for will still be (accurately) detected with this method, but at least it won't throw a code by not being there.
The throttle bodies have the same spacing, so I will be installing the original 2011 assembly once I drop the motor back in the chassis. This is an MCX 290 kit, so keeping the sled's original injectors seems wise.
That's about it for now. I'll update again once I've fired the engine.
Along with the new cam profiles in 2011, yamaha also enlarged the size of the exhaust port (on the head itself) as well as the 4 exhaust headers that fasten to the head. Everything is about 3mm larger. You can't use the '06-10 headers because of the different diameter of the old header to existing exhaust. Unfortunately, the bolt spacing is also 3mm off (+3mm center-center) on the 2011+ head & headers. You can't bolt the 'new' headers to the 'old' head as they come from Yamaha, but by elongating the bolt holes 1.5mm (towards the center) they will install without any further issue.
The cam trigger is a 7.85mm notch on both the old & new exhaust cam. I'm using the 2011 valve cover & sensor and expect no issues.
The part number is the same for the '06-10 and '11+ cranks. The stators and rotors do have different part numbers. I pulled the '11 rotor and installed it on the '06-10 crank without issue, and will be using the 2011 stator. From the ECU's perspective, the '06-10 engine is identical to the 2011+ now.
The new Apex engine has a boss on the case for the factory knock sensor. The previous generation did not have this. I have a custom starter bolt now that will still hold the starter in place, but also has a threaded boss to accept the knock sensor. I have no way of knowing if the specific harmonic the sensor is looking for will still be (accurately) detected with this method, but at least it won't throw a code by not being there.
The throttle bodies have the same spacing, so I will be installing the original 2011 assembly once I drop the motor back in the chassis. This is an MCX 290 kit, so keeping the sled's original injectors seems wise.
That's about it for now. I'll update again once I've fired the engine.
Last edited:
Stigapex
Suspended
Thank you very much. I have changed the engine in my sled also, but I bought a new 2011 engine from the local dealer.
Its interresting if the older engine works ok in the newer apex's. Its many people with 11 and newer Apex turbo that have blowed the engine, so maybe this is a solution
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Its interresting if the older engine works ok in the newer apex's. Its many people with 11 and newer Apex turbo that have blowed the engine, so maybe this is a solution
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No reason that it won't work. With the changes noted above, the ECU is seeing exactly the same information, from the same sensors it always has. The engine cases are dimensionally identical, so there are no fitment issues to be concerned with. My expectation is that on a dyno this (new) set-up would be down a couple of HP, but not anything to worry about and probably not even noticeable to the rider.
It is possible that I will get to do a few pulls this weekend. I know what RPM the original motor was pulling and will see how the 'new' motor handles the existing clutching.
Details to follow.
It is possible that I will get to do a few pulls this weekend. I know what RPM the original motor was pulling and will see how the 'new' motor handles the existing clutching.
Details to follow.
machzrobbie
Expert
The stator and flywheel are different and cannot be mixed - if you change both complete they will work in either generation of sled - just do not mix stator and flywheel. The motors will interchange other then the above noted exhaust ports and the intake cams are different. You can put new cam intake in old motor and vice versa. On the 08 and up block there is a boss for knock sensor, it just hasn't been drilled. The new head can be put on an older block, just be sure to use the newer style head gasket with it with a bigger oil restrictor in it for the timing chain tensioner. The new generation of block is stronger, so if boosting it is more desirable - but if all you can get is the older one it will work. The exup valve is designed to work with the new style intake cam so if the original cam is ok, performance should be better with it.
Stigapex
Suspended
Interesting and very good to know. Thanks for the info
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Finished the build about an hour ago. Sled fired up without issue (once we remembered to put gas in). Came to life with a nice steady 1600 rpm idle and didn't trip any codes.
We might get a chance to run it this week, depending on work/weather/etc. For now, it appears the answer is yes; you can put a 2008 engine in a 2011 Apex.
We might get a chance to run it this week, depending on work/weather/etc. For now, it appears the answer is yes; you can put a 2008 engine in a 2011 Apex.
kinger
VIP Member
great job lakercr! Thank you so much for sharing!
Stigapex
Suspended
Very useful information from lakercr and machzrobbie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quick update to this build now that the sled has several hundred miles on it:
No issues to report, and this engine gets worked like it owes him money. The new engine can pull the same clutching as the original. Quantitatively and qualitatively nothing has been lost by installing a hybrid motor. If you hurt a 2011+ Apex engine and want to save a bunch of $, I can vouch for this solution as a viable alternative.
No issues to report, and this engine gets worked like it owes him money. The new engine can pull the same clutching as the original. Quantitatively and qualitatively nothing has been lost by installing a hybrid motor. If you hurt a 2011+ Apex engine and want to save a bunch of $, I can vouch for this solution as a viable alternative.
What is the difference in the TB? Are they larger?
Is it possible to adjust the older motor cam timing using the stock gears for more performance or turbo build?
Is it possible to adjust the older motor cam timing using the stock gears for more performance or turbo build?
I guess the older computers also don't have any input for the knock sensor either?
Does anyone have a picture of the boss for the knock sensor?
kinger
VIP Member
Correct no knock control on older motors. The boss is dead center between cyl 2&3 and like Mach said above 08+ have it, both my 06 and 07 blocks did NOT have it. I hooked the Motec Knock sensor to the starter bolt about 1.5" away from the 08+ Boss location, the motec has a process to calibrate the knock threshold and mine has been done that way. So it jumps all over below 40%, and considered normal noise, above 40% is actual knock. Not sure what the factory Apex is looking for, I suspect its pulls a degree or 2 of timing based on fuel quality and that's probably it.
mulot30th
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,634
- Age
- 49
- Website
- youtube.com
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- 2023 thundercat
apex mountain crracing 174
apex blower 136 for asphalt racing
osp drag race sled (apex engine based)
Pretty much anything is possible.
I have a race sled that is a 2003 rx1 with all apex panels and delta
rx1 engine fuel injected using bigstuff3 and supercharged using a rotrex c38-81
I have a race sled that is a 2003 rx1 with all apex panels and delta
rx1 engine fuel injected using bigstuff3 and supercharged using a rotrex c38-81
Similar threads
