yammiman
Expert
..........Correct no modulars are currently Snell.........
That is why it is BS - by your own admission - the Harley helmet could not possibly be SNELL regardless how it is advertised - that is just logic
....Id be worried about the front of the helmet popping open if you take a hard digger...........
I've seen someone who has done just that - not a pretty site with your face half ripped off - I guess that is why I'm so desturbed by this post - Tork if I have offended you I'm sorry - I just don't agree with you or what has been published in this article advocating less is more - accidents come in all shapes and sizes - wearing protection that safeguards against only one or two possible scenarios just just doesn't make sense or promote safety - everytime I see articles in magazines or anywhere in the press simular to this one I ask myself "who has what to gain by this report?" - to me the modular helmet manufacturers have alot to gain by this reprort - the verdict is still out on these helmets - from what I've seen you might as well be wearing an open faced helmet as opposed to a modular - when SNELL starts testing them and they "officially" are appoved, I might even buy one - until then give me a full face SNELL - again, I'm sorry if I offended you - I'll shut up!
That is why it is BS - by your own admission - the Harley helmet could not possibly be SNELL regardless how it is advertised - that is just logic
....Id be worried about the front of the helmet popping open if you take a hard digger...........
I've seen someone who has done just that - not a pretty site with your face half ripped off - I guess that is why I'm so desturbed by this post - Tork if I have offended you I'm sorry - I just don't agree with you or what has been published in this article advocating less is more - accidents come in all shapes and sizes - wearing protection that safeguards against only one or two possible scenarios just just doesn't make sense or promote safety - everytime I see articles in magazines or anywhere in the press simular to this one I ask myself "who has what to gain by this report?" - to me the modular helmet manufacturers have alot to gain by this reprort - the verdict is still out on these helmets - from what I've seen you might as well be wearing an open faced helmet as opposed to a modular - when SNELL starts testing them and they "officially" are appoved, I might even buy one - until then give me a full face SNELL - again, I'm sorry if I offended you - I'll shut up!
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4Fighter
TY 4 Stroke God
The important thing to take away from all this is that the tests being conducted measured the G's on the head inside, not the helmet itself.
I think the best way to sum up the findings, or the testing, and what it all means is to look at a formula 1 race car. The cars themselves do not survive the crashes, but the cars take most of the initial force instead of the driver. The car would be the helmet, and the driver would be the head. Do you really want a chassis to remain intact, transferring the energy directly to the cage/driver? OR would you rather have the chassis take the brunt of the force? Think "crumple zones" A well designed helmet would be like a Formula 1 car in its ability to cusion a blow to the head.
If you want to survive a crash, then you want the LEAST amount of G's transfered from the impact, to your head. In the independent tests that were conducted, the Z1R transfered the LOWEST G's to the test head inside. The SNELL helmets in the same tests, seemed to allow more G's through to the head inside. If the test was conducted on you, which one would you prefer to be wearing?
At least at this stage in the game, we all believe in wearing a helmet. That's not such an easy thing to accomplish on the motorcycle side of things. IMO: Either is still fine for me, but I will not feel any safer simply because of the SNELL label.
I think the best way to sum up the findings, or the testing, and what it all means is to look at a formula 1 race car. The cars themselves do not survive the crashes, but the cars take most of the initial force instead of the driver. The car would be the helmet, and the driver would be the head. Do you really want a chassis to remain intact, transferring the energy directly to the cage/driver? OR would you rather have the chassis take the brunt of the force? Think "crumple zones" A well designed helmet would be like a Formula 1 car in its ability to cusion a blow to the head.
If you want to survive a crash, then you want the LEAST amount of G's transfered from the impact, to your head. In the independent tests that were conducted, the Z1R transfered the LOWEST G's to the test head inside. The SNELL helmets in the same tests, seemed to allow more G's through to the head inside. If the test was conducted on you, which one would you prefer to be wearing?
At least at this stage in the game, we all believe in wearing a helmet. That's not such an easy thing to accomplish on the motorcycle side of things. IMO: Either is still fine for me, but I will not feel any safer simply because of the SNELL label.
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
4Fighter, you got it 100% and may I compliment your excellent wordsmithing abilities!
Yammieman,
I am not offended at all, I knew full well when I started that this is a controversial and very complicated topic.
It is just that the owner of this site wants us to post up with a certain degree of respect.
And perhaps this is most important with hotly debated topics. Makes perfect sense, helps keep the place nice.
That open face Snell that Harley Davidson sells has been listed as that for at least 2 years. Snell is tough on enforcement, and if Harley way lying about this, Snell would have slapped an injunction and a law suit on them right away. http://www.hmhd.com/webstore/viewitemin ... rodclothes
The Snell Memorial Foundation has this to say about Modular Helmets
Yammieman,
I am not offended at all, I knew full well when I started that this is a controversial and very complicated topic.
It is just that the owner of this site wants us to post up with a certain degree of respect.
And perhaps this is most important with hotly debated topics. Makes perfect sense, helps keep the place nice.
That open face Snell that Harley Davidson sells has been listed as that for at least 2 years. Snell is tough on enforcement, and if Harley way lying about this, Snell would have slapped an injunction and a law suit on them right away. http://www.hmhd.com/webstore/viewitemin ... rodclothes
The Snell Memorial Foundation has this to say about Modular Helmets
4Fighter
TY 4 Stroke God
Tork said:
Thanks Tork!
I must admit that the response was slower than Yamadoo's post about the brain injury. However, I did not read his post prior to making my comment. It's a tough call though, not that I have anything against the Z1R, the SNELL rated scorpion offers the added sun-visor which, to me, is also a safety feature that may help to prevent an accident.
Sasquatch
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What concerns me a bit about this thread is the thought that some think that a helmet rating of 250 or 300 will make a huge difference in brain damage.
I think my helmet is Dot certified but I have to be realistic. Traveling at 60 mph which is not all that fast as far as our sleds go. Stopping in 2 inches which is the thickness of our helmets will put a 721g impact on our brains. If the helmets are even capable of a 2 inch crush. This my friends will kill you know matter if you have a Snell or DOT rating.
Even at 30mph your head will snap back and forth like a paddle ball in full play. Now if we could isolate neck rotation like Indy car drivers Ect by wearing huge collars and tying our helmet to the roll cage and having 5 feet of crush brain injury can be reduced to nil.
Problem is as we eject from our sled or motorcycle we are traveling at say 30 mph when we impact the tree. Our head snaps back from the impact of say up to 180g's, (that being very generous to the helmet) then it bounces forward again as our neck makes a 90 degree angle to our spine. If we are so unlucky as to impact the ground as well in this exchange of energy we could slam our head around like a bobble head doll. As it is our head will rebound back and forth more than once.
What the first impact and head rotating back on the neck does is create huge rotational forces on the brain bouncing the brain back and forth in your skull, tearing blood vessels, stretching tissues, and your brain stem. You are likely not going to survive this very well and that is at 30mph.
No helmet made today will stop brain injury from rotational trama! It can't because our brain floats around in our skull. Neck braces can help by stopping your head from bouncing around. You will notice racers when they climb out of cars, trucks have one on.
The one thing you can do to prevent brain injury is to stay below 30mph and wear a neck brace like the pro drivers. A helmet will stand a chance of saving your life then.
Unlike cages in race vehicles designed to crush on impact and protect the driver we are out in the open and will be ejected into who knows what. Where I ride its rocks and trees. That is a very sudden stop. A good helmet will stop a rock from breaking my skull at a slow speed, low impact but if the speed is increased to 60 plus mph ( a very common speed on rail beds and powerlines) the helmet is way beyond its design!
I mean think about it the test is dropping an helmet 10 ft. A gravity drop of ten feet will produce an impact of what, less than 30mph and 250gs to the brain. Helmets are designed to protect you from a fall off your bike or sled and drop to the ground. They are not designed to protect you from an high speed impact.
The g force graph shows you that a 2'' stopping distance at 60mph which is about the best a helmet ( again generous) can do still exerts a 721g impact on the brain. That will kill you period.
A link to g forces!
http://www.skytran.net/04Technical/pod08.htm
Now I wear a helmet and if I slide off the sled and bounce my head off a few things as I slide I know it will protect me from stitches quite well. But If I slam a rock or tree head on with my helmet at anything over 15mph I'm in deep trouble. This is why I find the whole argument of Snell DOT ratings meaningless.
By all means wear a helmet but if your worried about a high speed crash wearing a neck brace will go further towards saving your life then a helmet alone! Helmets will keep my head warm but slowing down will go further towards saving my life then a helmet ever will.
I think my helmet is Dot certified but I have to be realistic. Traveling at 60 mph which is not all that fast as far as our sleds go. Stopping in 2 inches which is the thickness of our helmets will put a 721g impact on our brains. If the helmets are even capable of a 2 inch crush. This my friends will kill you know matter if you have a Snell or DOT rating.
Even at 30mph your head will snap back and forth like a paddle ball in full play. Now if we could isolate neck rotation like Indy car drivers Ect by wearing huge collars and tying our helmet to the roll cage and having 5 feet of crush brain injury can be reduced to nil.
Problem is as we eject from our sled or motorcycle we are traveling at say 30 mph when we impact the tree. Our head snaps back from the impact of say up to 180g's, (that being very generous to the helmet) then it bounces forward again as our neck makes a 90 degree angle to our spine. If we are so unlucky as to impact the ground as well in this exchange of energy we could slam our head around like a bobble head doll. As it is our head will rebound back and forth more than once.
What the first impact and head rotating back on the neck does is create huge rotational forces on the brain bouncing the brain back and forth in your skull, tearing blood vessels, stretching tissues, and your brain stem. You are likely not going to survive this very well and that is at 30mph.
No helmet made today will stop brain injury from rotational trama! It can't because our brain floats around in our skull. Neck braces can help by stopping your head from bouncing around. You will notice racers when they climb out of cars, trucks have one on.
The one thing you can do to prevent brain injury is to stay below 30mph and wear a neck brace like the pro drivers. A helmet will stand a chance of saving your life then.
Unlike cages in race vehicles designed to crush on impact and protect the driver we are out in the open and will be ejected into who knows what. Where I ride its rocks and trees. That is a very sudden stop. A good helmet will stop a rock from breaking my skull at a slow speed, low impact but if the speed is increased to 60 plus mph ( a very common speed on rail beds and powerlines) the helmet is way beyond its design!
I mean think about it the test is dropping an helmet 10 ft. A gravity drop of ten feet will produce an impact of what, less than 30mph and 250gs to the brain. Helmets are designed to protect you from a fall off your bike or sled and drop to the ground. They are not designed to protect you from an high speed impact.
The g force graph shows you that a 2'' stopping distance at 60mph which is about the best a helmet ( again generous) can do still exerts a 721g impact on the brain. That will kill you period.
A link to g forces!
http://www.skytran.net/04Technical/pod08.htm
Now I wear a helmet and if I slide off the sled and bounce my head off a few things as I slide I know it will protect me from stitches quite well. But If I slam a rock or tree head on with my helmet at anything over 15mph I'm in deep trouble. This is why I find the whole argument of Snell DOT ratings meaningless.
By all means wear a helmet but if your worried about a high speed crash wearing a neck brace will go further towards saving your life then a helmet alone! Helmets will keep my head warm but slowing down will go further towards saving my life then a helmet ever will.
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
Super great post Sasquatch!
I agree completely that above a certain speed no helmet will save you and we really dont have much to keep necks from snapping back.
The point I was trying to make is that snell and DOT ratings in the real world arent that much different in the ability to save your life or to prevent brain injury. We have had a number of threads over the years where people have outright bashed non snell approved helmets as being unsafe, and that is simply misguided incorrect information.
a quiet comfortable helmet with good visibility, perhaps a flip down sunshade, can help you be a less distracted, stay more focused.
To me a good helmet design that helps you avoid an accident in the first place is more important than an argument about a DOT helmet saving your life at a 30 MPH VS a snell at 31MPH or vice versa.
In short, thinking you are soooo much safer in a snell helmet or thinking that modular helmets are unsafe because they lack a snell sticker is IMHO foolish.
I agree completely that above a certain speed no helmet will save you and we really dont have much to keep necks from snapping back.
The point I was trying to make is that snell and DOT ratings in the real world arent that much different in the ability to save your life or to prevent brain injury. We have had a number of threads over the years where people have outright bashed non snell approved helmets as being unsafe, and that is simply misguided incorrect information.
a quiet comfortable helmet with good visibility, perhaps a flip down sunshade, can help you be a less distracted, stay more focused.
To me a good helmet design that helps you avoid an accident in the first place is more important than an argument about a DOT helmet saving your life at a 30 MPH VS a snell at 31MPH or vice versa.
In short, thinking you are soooo much safer in a snell helmet or thinking that modular helmets are unsafe because they lack a snell sticker is IMHO foolish.
yammiman If a helmet is not tested in real world conditions such as testing a snomobile helmet in freezing temperatures I would not trust it at all. Like Tork has said moto cross helmets are not tested in freezing temps and if that is what you are trying to suggest to other TY members as safe buddy you had better retract that statement.
PS Please show a little respect to the moderators who do that job as a service to you and I without being paid for it.
:ORC
PS Please show a little respect to the moderators who do that job as a service to you and I without being paid for it.
:ORC
Off topic a bit, but Ill chime in with-
I lost my best friend March 10, 2005 to a snowmobiling accident. It was the worst experience I have ever been through. He was wearing a Snell approved HJC helmet, Knee pads and a Tek-Vest. The bottom line is there is NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING that is 100% guaranteed safe. Everytime ANY of us put a leg over the seat of a sled, you are increasing the risk of death. Period!
I own a BV2S and an HJC CLX4 just for the convenience of being able to change helmets depending on temperature.
It is pretty clear this debate is touchy, bottom line is everyone has there opinions, theorys...etc. Ride safe and Ride smart and protect yourself to the best of your ability.
I lost my best friend March 10, 2005 to a snowmobiling accident. It was the worst experience I have ever been through. He was wearing a Snell approved HJC helmet, Knee pads and a Tek-Vest. The bottom line is there is NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING that is 100% guaranteed safe. Everytime ANY of us put a leg over the seat of a sled, you are increasing the risk of death. Period!
I own a BV2S and an HJC CLX4 just for the convenience of being able to change helmets depending on temperature.
It is pretty clear this debate is touchy, bottom line is everyone has there opinions, theorys...etc. Ride safe and Ride smart and protect yourself to the best of your ability.
Sasquatch
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Yep we ride, we risk. I wear a full face in the winter to keep my face warm. In the summer I wear an open face because I don't need to keep my face warm. I buy quality helmets but know they are only good in low impact scenarios.
I know the risks and if I wanted a hobby with no risk I would not have chosen Biking or Sledding. I think that is part of the want to ride is the risk. Not in a daredevil sort of way but in a I have to stay alert and look after me sort of way. Nothing like the thought of death to make you feel alive and when I ride a sled or a bike I do feel so alive!
If you like the modular helmet then wear one but they have a reputation for popping open on impact. Full face and motocross style helmets have a reputation for breaking necks if you slide face down feet first as they catch and snap your neck back real hard. Open face and to a lesser extent modular give less frontal protection in a face plant. You may not be so pretty.
Make your choice or chose more than one and switch for different riding conditions. In the end though there is no such thing as a safe helmet. The only sure bet is to try and be a safe rider. As Bluebyyou2000 says safety equipment does not guarantee life.
I know the risks and if I wanted a hobby with no risk I would not have chosen Biking or Sledding. I think that is part of the want to ride is the risk. Not in a daredevil sort of way but in a I have to stay alert and look after me sort of way. Nothing like the thought of death to make you feel alive and when I ride a sled or a bike I do feel so alive!
If you like the modular helmet then wear one but they have a reputation for popping open on impact. Full face and motocross style helmets have a reputation for breaking necks if you slide face down feet first as they catch and snap your neck back real hard. Open face and to a lesser extent modular give less frontal protection in a face plant. You may not be so pretty.
Make your choice or chose more than one and switch for different riding conditions. In the end though there is no such thing as a safe helmet. The only sure bet is to try and be a safe rider. As Bluebyyou2000 says safety equipment does not guarantee life.
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All I can say is "CALM the Hell DOWN"... snow will be here soon.
Any helmet on your head is better then none at all.....
Great post Matt...
Any helmet on your head is better then none at all.....
Great post Matt...
yammiman
Expert
I just want to say that this is a sensitive subject for me and I should not have gotten back into the discussion in the first place - for that I appologize - if I said anything that offended anyone or came accross disrespectful - again I appologize - like Sasquatch pointed out, this can be a risky sport and the main thing is that we "be safe" regardless of personal preferences in equipment - with that being said, let's just look forward to a long safe season - yammiman 
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