What's happened to the Japanese Manufacturers (not just sleds)

[vice108]

Its still so hard to believe that Yamaha is out of the sled biz! It seems like yesterday that the SRX was king and the Apex was amazing and new etc... I understand, of course, that sleds are a smaller and smaller niche etc, but I always thought they would stick in the business to remain a four season company which is probably important to the dealers.

But it seems like this is part of a bigger picture with the Japanese manufacturers in general. It seems the same is occurring in the ATV and SXS market. The Grizzly 700 is of course highly evolved at this point but its SOOOO old now. Nor do I see anything exciting and fresh from Honda, Kawasaki or Suzuki in the off road market. The Yamaha RMAX4 UTV is, without question, a fantastic machine if you're looking for a utility type vehicle. But if you want something that's fast, fun and high performance you pretty much have to buy something from Can Am or Polaris. They are 100+ horsepower beyond any of the Japanese sport type UTVs and their ATVs are way more powerful as well. Where are the big Japanese companies?

I finally replaced my Grizzly 660 this week and it was a no-brainer for me to get a 2023 Can AM Outlander 1000R. I like my toys fun & fast which is why I have a Sidewinder and an Apex & SRX before that. But there is no competition from Yamaha or any of the other big Japanese manufacturers that offers anything even close. Ten years ago I never would have imagined this scenario. This is the first powersports product I've bought in my life that wasn't a Yamaha or, on one occasion, a Honda. I would much prefer to buy another Yamaha but there isn't anything.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are they all just focusing on the motorcycle market or something?

 

[earthling]

I don't fault Yamaha for getting out of snowmobiles as much as it hurts the rest of us. The market outlook just doesn't look great on the surface and for a company that would be fighting from well behind to re-establish itself in the industry a re-investment is a pretty big ask.

Short answer. And this is very much a personal opinion after dealing with Japanese companies for decades.

Japanese companies are driven by a blend of culture, passion, and business economics and its hard for them to get worked up about things they cannot relate to very well. Street bikes, boats, cars, electronics are all still very much part of the Japanese culture but offroad is very much a sub-culture thing in Japan, like surfing, and rock music. I have seen Japanese companies get very deep into markets they are passionate about but always tempered by an ongoing business justification. They are always going to ask themselves continuously if it is a sound investment. Couple this to the market outlook (increasing regulatory restrictions, a changing demographic that cares less about offroad, and a warming climate) and it would be tough for any company to want to stay in the market unless it is core to their success (one of the few things they do). Offroad is very much a side business for Yamaha and when it came time for them to consider their investments, the growth markets (electric vehicles, AI, robotics, etc) are where Yamaha and the rest are going to place their bets.

 

[vice108]

I don't fault Yamaha for getting out of snowmobiles as much as it hurts the rest of us. The market outlook just doesn't look great on the surface and for a company that would be fighting from well behind to re-establish itself in the industry a re-investment is a pretty big ask.

Short answer. And this is very much a personal opinion after dealing with Japanese companies for decades.

Japanese companies are driven by a blend of culture, passion, and business economics and its hard for them to get worked up about things they cannot relate to very well. Street bikes, boats, cars, electronics are all still very much part of the Japanese culture but offroad is very much a sub-culture thing in Japan, like surfing, and rock music. I have seen Japanese companies get very deep into markets they are passionate about but always tempered by an ongoing business justification. They are always going to ask themselves continuously if it is a sound investment. Couple this to the market outlook (increasing regulatory restrictions, a changing demographic that cares less about offroad, and a warming climate) and it would be tough for any company to want to stay in the market unless it is core to their success (one of the few things they do). Offroad is very much a side business for Yamaha and when it came time for them to consider their investments, the growth markets (electric vehicles, AI, robotics, etc) are where Yamaha and the rest are going to place their bets.

I appreciate your well thought out response. That’s interesting about what you observed in the business culture in Japan. Although I feel like the side-by-side market is fairly large and healthy right now. Certainly much bigger and better than the snowmobile market anyway.

Does company pride not factor into any of these decisions? These companies have such amazing engineering and have fielded such dominant products in the past and so to a lay person It’s always hard to understand how they can let themselves fall back so far from the North American competition.

 

[earthling]

Pride is a huge factor, but only when tempered by good business decisions. The management teams at the companies I work with hate, hate, hate to lose, but the decision to move ahead always come from above.

Also, pride is mobile. Losing in one market is often offset by both a new market opportunity and success in a parallel market. If you confronted an executive high enough up and asked them about snowmobile success, the answer would probably be somewhere along the lines of admitting that they hadn't done as well as they hoped but LOOK AT OUR SUCCESS IN THE OUTBOARD MOTOR MARKET..

If you ever had that chance, I can share what one exec told me.. Discussions happen in the boardroom, conversations happen over drinks.
To which I can only say that they make very, very good whisky.

 

[vice108]

But I guess what I’m looking for is what has changed so much? In the past they were a dominant force, or at least a very competitive force, in all of these markets.

I would certainly concede that the snowmobile market is not a moneymaker for them. But side-by-side and ATV markets are still really big as far as I can tell And yet the big 4 Japanese companies seem to be ceding these markets to Can-Am and Polaris.

 

[Srxspec]

Yamaha will tell you they own a very small market share in these powersports markets, but part of the reason behind that small market share is because of a lack of willingness to invest and bring new technology to the forefront! With no vision for on the edge, innovative designs, there is no desire and no money made. Actually Yamaha snowmobiles over the last 2 or 3 years (post covid) have been some of the most profitable years they have had, no over head, units virtually made "by order" resulted in pretty good profits because there were no rebates, no large amounts of inventory at dealers, etc. The biggest part in any of this, is likely parts availability & cost! The cost of parts & production has risen so far out of whack. As a bleed blue guy, Yamaha as a whole in the powersports markets looks very bleek.

 

[vice108]

Yamaha will tell you they own a very small market share in these powersports markets, but part of the reason behind that small market share is because of a lack of willingness to invest and bring new technology to the forefront! With no vision for on the edge, innovative designs, there is no desire and no money made. Actually Yamaha snowmobiles over the last 2 or 3 years (post covid) have been some of the most profitable years they have had, no over head, units virtually made "by order" resulted in pretty good profits because there were no rebates, no large amounts of inventory at dealers, etc. The biggest part in any of this, is likely parts availability & cost! The cost of parts & production has risen so far out of whack. As a bleed blue guy, Yamaha as a whole in the powersports markets looks very bleek.

And Srxspec I would say not just Yamaha! The other 3 don’t seem to be doing a ton of work in the atv & SXS markets either. I’m not saying that they each don’t have some good products but not a lot.

I certainly understand why Yamaha didn’t want to re-tool again and start making a new two stroke for snowmobile’s for the mountain segment or anything like that. But ATVs and side-by-side’s are a four stroke market, and we all know that Yamaha has a huge supply of the best 4 strokes available. So from the sidelines it SEEMS so doable. A twin cylinder Grizzly alone would be huge seller! Grizzley owners have literally been begging them to do it for at least 10 years and many like myself have been waiting and would certainly buy one immediately. But they just don’t seem to respond to what the consumers are asking for anymore. I just don’t understand. Now these owners are all slowly switching to Can-Am and Polaris, but we would rather stick with Yamaha dependability if we could.

 

[maim]

since the tsunami in japan, they have not re invested into the manufacturing infrastructure they have to bring it back to pre levels and most likely never will.

 

[earthling]

since the tsunami in japan, they have not re invested into the manufacturing infrastructure they have to bring it back to pre levels and most likely never will.

Sort of..

Yamaha, post Tsunami had to step up manufacturing by 20x to help the Japanese fishing fleet recover from all of the loses. What was an average of 250 boats / year ordered became orders for over 4900. The Japanese companies became very selective in what they were going to replace. Manufacturers often suffer from the flywheel effect where its sometimes cheaper to keep manufacturing going for a marginal product than it is to shut down a division. Post Tsunami/Earthquake many companies saw this as an opportunity to selectively rebuild. The same thing happened in Taiwan when a bunch of the electronic fab houses burnt down. The companies saw this as an opportunity to rebuild the plants using more modern technology, abandoning the older fab processes. We were forced to move our board and chip production to Mexico where to this day, the company has a dozen people on site just to make sure quality targets can be met. Something we never had to do in Taiwan.

 

[pdiddy]

Its still so hard to believe that Yamaha is out of the sled biz!

Yeah, I keep thinking once it snows they'll come to their senses! They had a no risk deal with Cat and people stood in line to pay the premium for a blue one. They could come out with an incremental improvement once in a while (Stryke ski for example) and the world would keep turning as long as they played the game.
Some posts refer to the Japanese culture and I agree that's a factor here. Other posts mentioning the tsunami also are relevant. The last thing they need to rebuild is power toy factories for North America.

 

[vice108]

Yeah, I keep thinking once it snows they'll come to their senses! They had a no risk deal with Cat and people stood in line to pay the premium for a blue one. They could come out with an incremental improvement once in a while (Stryke ski for example) and the world would keep turning as long as they played the game.
Some posts refer to the Japanese culture and I agree that's a factor here. Other posts mentioning the tsunami also are relevant. The last thing they need to rebuild is power toy factories for North America.

And Maybe cat /Textron didn’t want to continue because people wanted the blue sleds instead of the green ones?

But on another related topic I can’t help but feel like there’s a big hole in the market now for people who want 4 stroke sleds. It’s a lot of people and will continue to grow when you consider that the snowmobile crowd is shifting older all the time.

I sure don’t want a 2 stroke sled! I don’t trust them. Out of all the power sports, I think snowmobile’s are clearly the ones that are tuned to the sharpest edge and the highest performance by far. It just seems like all of the high-performance two strokes are on the edge of burning down.

Where I ride in Maine you could be in a world of trouble pretty quickly if you suffer a catastrophic breakdown at the wrong time.

 

[74Nitro]

Its still so hard to believe that Yamaha is out of the sled biz! It seems like yesterday that the SRX was king and the Apex was amazing and new etc... I understand, of course, that sleds are a smaller and smaller niche etc, but I always thought they would stick in the business to remain a four season company which is probably important to the dealers.

But it seems like this is part of a bigger picture with the Japanese manufacturers in general. It seems the same is occurring in the ATV and SXS market. The Grizzly 700 is of course highly evolved at this point but its SOOOO old now. Nor do I see anything exciting and fresh from Honda, Kawasaki or Suzuki in the off road market. The Yamaha RMAX4 UTV is, without question, a fantastic machine if you're looking for a utility type vehicle. But if you want something that's fast, fun and high performance you pretty much have to buy something from Can Am or Polaris. They are 100+ horsepower beyond any of the Japanese sport type UTVs and their ATVs are way more powerful as well. Where are the big Japanese companies?

I finally replaced my Grizzly 660 this week and it was a no-brainer for me to get a 2023 Can AM Outlander 1000R. I like my toys fun & fast which is why I have a Sidewinder and an Apex & SRX before that. But there is no competition from Yamaha or any of the other big Japanese manufacturers that offers anything even close. Ten years ago I never would have imagined this scenario. This is the first powersports product I've bought in my life that wasn't a Yamaha or, on one occasion, a Honda. I would much prefer to buy another Yamaha but there isn't anything.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are they all just focusing on the motorcycle market or something?

It's like you read my mind, I was also thinking about starting a similar post.
You're right it's all four Japanese manufacturers. They have become complacent and don't seem to be spending on R&D or racing for that matter.
In Motogp Suzuki left, and Yamaha and Honda who once dominated are now having their lunch eaten by the European brands.
After all these years, none of the Jap's have an ATV over 800. WTF?

 

[74Nitro]

And Srxspec I would say not just Yamaha! The other 3 don’t seem to be doing a ton of work in the atv & SXS markets either. I’m not saying that they each don’t have some good products but not a lot.

I certainly understand why Yamaha didn’t want to re-tool again and start making a new two stroke for snowmobile’s for the mountain segment or anything like that. But ATVs and side-by-side’s are a four stroke market, and we all know that Yamaha has a huge supply of the best 4 strokes available. So from the sidelines it SEEMS so doable. A twin cylinder Grizzly alone would be huge seller! Grizzley owners have literally been begging them to do it for at least 10 years and many like myself have been waiting and would certainly buy one immediately. But they just don’t seem to respond to what the consumers are asking for anymore. I just don’t understand. Now these owners are all slowly switching to Can-Am and Polaris, but we would rather stick with Yamaha dependability if we could.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[74Nitro]

Couldn't agree more!

Even the Ducati CEO in a recent interview seemed puzzled as to why the Japanese aren't investing anymore.

 

[vice108]

It's like you read my mind, I was also thinking about starting a similar post.
You're right it's all four Japanese manufacturers. They have become complacent and don't seem to be spending on R&D or racing for that matter.
In Motogp Suzuki left, and Yamaha and Honda who once dominated are now having their lunch eaten by the European brands.
After all these years, none of the Jap's have an ATV over 800. WTF?

I’m glad I’m not the only one noticing. And really when you think about it - it’s relatively recent still that things really began to change.

And I must say - as much as I never thought I would part from Yamaha - my Can Am Outlaner 1000R is amazing! Not only does it have twice the horse power of my Grizzly but the handling AND comfort are on another planet. It’s not even close. Obviously I knew the power difference would be huge but I’m completely stunned at the chassis. It’s like comparing a corvette to a chevette. Night & Day difference. Why isn’t Yamaha or Honda making machines like this anymore?!?!?!? Obviously they have the engineering talent. I would prefer to buy blue if I could!