New Apex v. Ski Doo 800

[blue er]

Im pretty sure when Mike Knapp raced his vmax four he would gear it low to get a great 60 foot spin the motor really high to pull the MPH out of the RPM. Its a proven fact the higher the rpm at the clutch the higher the MPH.

I always found that over revving up & above where the motor makes its most hp loses on top end. The higher your rpm goes above the peak (where it makes the most hp) the less hp it makes, the hp curve falls off. e.g if my sled supposedly makes 150 hp at 10,500 rpm, at 10,800 it might only produce 147hp higher than that would be even less.
Each to their own on this one I guess.

most genisis 4 cyl make peak hp between 10'500 and 10'800 in a perfect world you have it dyno'd and clutch to that max hp clutched to optimal rpm =max shift out and top speed

 

[blue er]

to the op, really up to you, the doo has a nice seating position much better than the original rev, has a tougher harder hitting skid it is more flickable feeling sled as for overall ride and comfort i give that to the apex has more on throttle torgue comes out of a corner like a gorilla i find the rev is more harsh to ride the lightness of it seems to vibrate right up your shoulders where the pex tends to go through instead of over trail stutters. i found installing a taller riser on the apex made all the difference in the world in how the sled feels .
as for actual power there pretty close i ride with all shortys no one is really king of the hill whoever gets out in front tends to stay there

 

[UP Michigan rider]

great deal on a left over, so started pricing a 2014. Then, found a smoking deal on a new 2013 Ski Doo TNT 800

Sounds like money is a big issue.


If you have lots of money to burn = Go with the doo

If you don't have lots of money to burn = Go with the Apex XTX

They apex = motorcycle engine. Its good for 25,000 miles easy.

 

[RX1]

Thanks to all for the great input. I really appreciate the detail you guys have brought to this discussion. Nope, it is not a money issue, just trying to make a tough decision. I think it boils down to, I do not want to give up the Yamaha engine, but may be happier with the riding position of the Doo. From the little seat time I had on the 2013 Yamaha, I hope I am not overestimating my perception on the benefit of the power steering. It really seemed to equalize a lot of the handling differences. If I put another inch or two in the Yamaha seat, I may be close to the Doo seating.

 

[ranger1]

Thanks to all for the great input. I really appreciate the detail you guys have brought to this discussion. Nope, it is not a money issue, just trying to make a tough decision. I think it boils down to, I do not want to give up the Yamaha engine, but may be happier with the riding position of the Doo. From the little seat time I had on the 2013 Yamaha, I hope I am not overestimating my perception on the benefit of the power steering. It really seemed to equalize a lot of the handling differences. If I put another inch or two in the Yamaha seat, I may be close to the Doo seating.

RX1, I apologize for kinda accidentally hyjacking your post earlier, got a little off topic by talking about rpm's & horsepower,lol!!!
I have not much to offer you as I have no personal experience with the two stroke Doo, however, I rode my buddies 1200 four stroke Doo & I was very impressed with it, good handling, excellent ride & besides the primary clutch exploding issues it should have the four stroke reliability.
Good luck with your decision

 

[ranger1]

Thanks to all for the great input. I really appreciate the detail you guys have brought to this discussion. Nope, it is not a money issue, just trying to make a tough decision. I think it boils down to, I do not want to give up the Yamaha engine, but may be happier with the riding position of the Doo. From the little seat time I had on the 2013 Yamaha, I hope I am not overestimating my perception on the benefit of the power steering. It really seemed to equalize a lot of the handling differences. If I put another inch or two in the Yamaha seat, I may be close to the Doo seating.

RX1, I apologize for kinda accidentally hyjacking your post earlier, got a little off topic by talking about rpm's & horsepower,lol!!!
I have not much to offer you as I have no personal experience with the two stroke Doo, however, I rode my buddies 1200 four stroke Doo & I was very impressed with it, good handling, excellent ride & besides the primary clutch exploding issues it should have the four stroke reliability.
Good luck with your decision

 

[RX1]

Thanks Ranger. All good discussion and I knew the talk would stray from time to time! Anyone have thoughts on what you are hearing about the Apex for next year? My son was at a Yamaha event in January and a rep "insinuated" there could be a factory supercharger option next year. Anyone else hearing that?

 

[kviper]

Power is power and an Apex makes it's peak at around 10,500 and I think peak Torque is around 10,300 and does not gain on either after that RPM. The key is that the power (torque) holds long enough in the additional RPM for the gain from centrifugal force in the clutch to out weigh the power loss. The two stroke's typically fall on there face as soon as they rev past peak or fall under the 2 to 3 hundred RPM power band. Apex has a huge power band compared to a two stroke. That's why an Apex will gain MPH by running some past peak.
The reason for a 150 HP Apex running with or ahead of a 160+ HP Doo or running with a Turbo Cat at 177 HP is Chasis and drive line efficiency.
Don't get all tied up on HP as it is not even measured by a Dyno. HP is a number derived by torque x RPM devided by 5252. Simply an indication of where power is made. A Dyno measures Torque and HP is calculated.

 

[**sj**]

jtsrx's etec is fastest

 

[SledFreak]

Power is power and an Apex makes it's peak at around 10,500 and I think peak Torque is around 10,300 and does not gain on either after that RPM. The key is that the power (torque) holds long enough in the additional RPM for the gain from centrifugal force in the clutch to out weigh the power loss. The two stroke's typically fall on there face as soon as they rev past peak or fall under the 2 to 3 hundred RPM power band. Apex has a huge power band compared to a two stroke. That's why an Apex will gain MPH by running some past peak.
The reason for a 150 HP Apex running with or ahead of a 160+ HP Doo or running with a Turbo Cat at 177 HP is Chasis and drive line efficiency.
Don't get all tied up on HP as it is not even measured by a Dyno. HP is a number derived by torque x RPM devided by 5252. Simply an indication of where power is made. A Dyno measures Torque and HP is calculated.

The etec 800 is not 162+... Its 150-155 once broken in at most... That 162 was on a 2010.5, that had a jacked ecu and they never released that motor in 2011 and was redone again in 2012. The mapping has changed every year since it was released..

 

[kviper]

And the Apex is 150-152 and a fair amount heavier. Point is Apex has a much thicker power band that doesn't fall off like a two stroke and will make gain's by running over peak on the big end.

 

[Terminator]

RX1 to your questions:

1) I have owned several Apex's and rode my 2011 XTX for the past 2 years prior to this season, best sled I had owned to that point. Power steering transformed the sled, absolutely loved it, like a Cadillac on steroids. However, I wanted to try something lighter as the Apex pushes a little thru corners or scares the shite out of you w/ inside skilift (I've done all the things to make it it corner better, Simmons, 13 mm swaybar, lower front end etc). I went out and got a 2013 Renegade X 800 etec for this season and I can tell yo first hand that the Skidoo w/ rmotion wins handling hands down. Rider position is way better as well, knees aren't as bent and easier to stand when needed.

2) I think the 13 engines are performing well, skidoo has worked the bugs out but since it is not the 4-stroke genesis motor I got the extended warranty for peace of mind (1800 miles this season w/o a hicup).

3) Apex needs to lose weight and that means in the chasis, I'd wait.

4) It took a little getting used to but the position on the skidoo it clearly better and the seat is second to none, trust me.

All in all I am fortunate to own both sleds, each sled has its strong points and weaknesses as outlined by other posts, bottom line is that when I walk out of camp to go riding for the day I choose the Skidoo etec . . . . . . . . Wife and son fight over the XTX, lol.

Good Luck on your choice.

 

[jtssrx]

Sj is faster

 

[**sj**]

jtssrx's etec is fastest

 

[DoktorC]

This isn't tge head to head forum so ill keep my comments to myself. All ill say is I'm sick of the excuses.

After reading the apex freight train post and watching the video I though I had no prayer needless to say the only apex that could beat me was heavily modded

Odd...my STOCK 06 Apex likes to stomp all over etecs....maybe you have one of those mythical unicorn XP's...you know the one that's faster than an Apex, doesn't popcan when you catch a carbide loading it on the trailer and the motor lasts more than a season....

I know it's not the head to head forum...but...sick of the excuses...come on....