Once upon a time, I had a belt blower, then Mike Knapp and Clutchmaster did some magic

[Beerman]

Based on a true story, the names of those involved have not been changed since they're clearly guilty as hell.

I spent the better part of the last 2 seasons blowing belts on my TD tuned '17 RTX, trying several different clutching combos in the hopes of making a belt last longer than 300 miles or 2 back-to-back WOT pulls, whichever came first. Rarely did I get 300 miles from a belt since I really like WOT.

Fast forward to this season with my new '18 LTX, the full complement of go-fast goodies ~270hp, BUT a machined secondary taking me down to the magical 57.5mm offset and the same basic clutching combo I ended last season with. I met up with @ClutchMaster for a ride on the beautiful North Shore of Minnesota, had a great first day in the twisties. Then on day 2 we ended up on the legendary Yukon and it's 3+ mile straightaways - one WOT pull felt awesome, so a second should feel even better, but instead, KABLAMMO! My 584th 8JP went to pieces.


Photo caption: Beerman assessing the damage and Clutchmaster copping a feel to verify the belt really isn't there. Hint, it really isn't.

But now the story gets good.

I took the chance to engage in a fair bit of theoretical discussion involving complex geometry, hypothetical physics, a good bit of Olav Aaen's wisdom, a sprinkling of the dark arts that involved chicken entrails, and a bunch of other mumbo jumbo that makes me need a beer, with my two personal and very lowly paid (actually slave labor rates) clutching gurus, @KnappAttack and @ClutchMaster. After all of this "discussion" - which was really between the two of them with me as a spectator as clueless as a 50 year-0ld-father having to go see Justin Timberlake with his 14 year-old-daughter, but that's a different story - they arrived at a new combo that changed only my secondary.

Here's the important stuff that I expect the two of them can explain much better. These high-hp sleds need more side pressure squeezing the belt. Apparently my previous 35° Dalton helix with Dalton BLK/ORG doesn't provide enough and the belt is actually slipping in the secondary - which we all know is bad, very, very bad. Yes, it's bad.

The new combo provides much more side pressure and the thing many of us might be lacking, is a stronger secondary spring. So inquiring minds are wanting to know the full extent of this combo I'm sure. I make no claims that this will work for you, but Knapp and Clutchmaster know what's going on and why this is working.

Primary

• TPI 911 cover
• Dalton DTYA-1 weights (empty right now, but might need more weight in better snow)
• Dalton BLK/GRN primary spring
• TPI rollers
• TPI glide washers

Secondary

• 57.5mm offset (Clutchmaster recommended this a long time ago)
  • 2.5MM machined off shaft, no shims
• Dalton 38° helix
• Dalton Arctic Cat White wrapped at 0-1 (same as Arctic Cat SnoPro green)
• TPI belt adjuster with it still floating
• Allen Ulmer rollers
• XS825 made by Timken

So fast forward to this last weekend - 500 miles on the same XS825 with a BUNCH of WOT pulls to 112-118mph and a sustained 90mph+ for miles and miles on a 35 mile RR grade.



I'm not declaring victory yet, but this is pretty damn close. I would NEVER have gotten anywhere near 500 miles on one belt riding like I did this last weekend. This is what the belt looks like at the 400 mile mark after me treating it like this guy treats his poor wife.



Your mileage may vary, and I'm not recommending this combo for anyone, but it SEEMS to be working well for me.

THANK YOU Mike Knapp and Clutchmaster for all the counsel and brainpower around this issue so many of us are facing and battling with.

P.S. I do not condone the behavior the fellow in the white tank top appears to be ready to commit. And I do not condone the sacrificial slaughter of chickens to foretell the future, unless the future is that I will be able to ride hard on 1 belt for 1000 miles, then I'm actually ok with it, plus chicken tastes good and makes an even better soup.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Now that’s some funy a$$ $hit right there!
That dude with the belt is giving me flashbacks of my grade school days, STRIKING resemblance of my father after a piss poor report card.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Glad it’s working out 4 ya!

 

[snowdust]

Thanks for the feedback. I am running pretty much the same thing and had good results this past weekend. Didn't get to test as much as I hoped as most lakes were drifted but it ran well. I am running 77.3g total though and at 8900ish. I'm surprised you aren't way high on RPM with those weights empty. I'm running the blk/blue in the primary so pretty much the same finish. I did find the white at 9-1 seemed to slip at real low speeds like around a gas station. Seemed much better at 0-1. I'm also running the 8DN so that could be the difference in RPM now that I think about it. I'm going to try the straight 35 in two weekends just to compare.

 

[Doowithblue]

You can always try 9/2 before going to 0/1 with the softer belts.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Well if that guy uses a 8JP belt on his wife, i think his wife will be ok....

 

[WVTurboLTX]

While I am getting closer to where I need to be, I still get a vibration when cruising at 70-90 mph. I used to think it was snow buildup in the tunnel but after last week I think it is the secondary slipping. Might have to try this spring. Can I run it with the 35 helix or do I need something steeper?

 

[snowbeast]

Based on a true story, the names of those involved have not been changed since they're clearly guilty as hell.

I spent the better part of the last 2 seasons blowing belts on my TD tuned '17 RTX, trying several different clutching combos in the hopes of making a belt last longer than 300 miles or 2 back-to-back WOT pulls, whichever came first. Rarely did I get 300 miles from a belt since I really like WOT.

Fast forward to this season with my new '18 LTX, the full complement of go-fast goodies ~270hp, BUT a machined secondary taking me down to the magical 57.5mm offset and the same basic clutching combo I ended last season with. I met up with @ClutchMaster for a ride on the beautiful North Shore of Minnesota, had a great first day in the twisties. Then on day 2 we ended up on the legendary Yukon and it's 3+ mile straightaways - one WOT pull felt awesome, so a second should feel even better, but instead, KABLAMMO! My 584th 8JP went to pieces.

View attachment 145820
Photo caption: Beerman assessing the damage and Clutchmaster copping a feel to verify the belt really isn't there. Hint, it really isn't.

But now the story gets good.

I took the chance to engage in a fair bit of theoretical discussion involving complex geometry, hypothetical physics, a good bit of Olav Aaen's wisdom, a sprinkling of the dark arts that involved chicken entrails, and a bunch of other mumbo jumbo that makes me need a beer, with my two personal and very lowly paid (actually slave labor rates) clutching gurus, @KnappAttack and @ClutchMaster. After all of this "discussion" - which was really between the two of them with me as a spectator as clueless as a 50 year-0ld-father having to go see Justin Timberlake with his 14 year-old-daughter, but that's a different story - they arrived at a new combo that changed only my secondary.

Here's the important stuff that I expect the two of them can explain much better. These high-hp sleds need more side pressure squeezing the belt. Apparently my previous 35° Dalton helix with Dalton BLK/ORG doesn't provide enough and the belt is actually slipping in the secondary - which we all know is bad, very, very bad. Yes, it's bad.

The new combo provides much more side pressure and the thing many of us might be lacking, is a stronger secondary spring. So inquiring minds are wanting to know the full extent of this combo I'm sure. I make no claims that this will work for you, but Knapp and Clutchmaster know what's going on and why this is working.

Primary

• TPI 911 cover
• Dalton DTYA-1 weights (empty right now, but might need more weight in better snow)
• Dalton BLK/GRN primary spring
• TPI rollers
• TPI glide washers

Secondary

• 57.5mm offset (Clutchmaster recommended this a long time ago)
  • 2.5MM machined off shaft, no shims
• Dalton 38° helix
• Dalton Arctic Cat White wrapped at 0-1 (same as Arctic Cat SnoPro green)
• TPI belt adjuster with it still floating
• Allen Ulmer rollers
• XS825 made by Timken

So fast forward to this last weekend - 500 miles on the same XS825 with a BUNCH of WOT pulls to 112-118mph and a sustained 90mph+ for miles and miles on a 35 mile RR grade.

View attachment 145825 View attachment 145827 View attachment 145830 View attachment 145829 View attachment 145828 View attachment 145826

I'm not declaring victory yet, but this is pretty damn close. I would NEVER have gotten anywhere near 500 miles on one belt riding like I did this last weekend. This is what the belt looks like at the 400 mile mark after me treating it like this guy treats his poor wife.

View attachment 145821 View attachment 145822View attachment 145823View attachment 145824

Your mileage may vary, and I'm not recommending this combo for anyone, but it SEEMS to be working well for me.

THANK YOU Mike Knapp and Clutchmaster for all the counsel and brainpower around this issue so many of us are facing and battling with.

Well,i am receiving my cat white from dale tomorrow,and have all the same components you have,so I may just do the same set up,because I am now running same belt as you have,with very little use on it,i may only wrap it to 9-1 or 9-2 to start though. Great info. Thanks

 

[Doowithblue]

8dn will need 0/1 or 0/2. Some even run the blk/lime which has even more side force.

 

[DMCTurbo]

So I’m no expert but here’s my 2 cents. Last year I tried the tp orange secondary spring, prior to using this spring I hadn’t blown a belt the whole first season. I blew 3 belts in 500 kms with the tp orange. I had it at the recommended 70 degrees and went as low as 40 degrees. Clutches were smoking hot and I took out 3 belts in one trip. ( I didn’t bring my stock spring with me).

I got home and put in the dalton black orange in and ended up at 3-3. 2000’ pulls back to back to back, cool clutches and no blown belts. I trail ride with this setup and have yet to blow another belt. All this with a 41/35 dalton.

So the other day I thought I’d try the 35 for the hell of it. I wrapped it at 6-1 and went for a ride. I made some good pulls on the rail bed but I could hear it slipping. I stopped and clutches were smoking hot and rubber all over my sheaves.

Maybe I’m out to lunch but my sled seems to work better with more helix and less spring force. Cool clutches all day long. Again my 2 cents.

 

[1nc 2000]

So I’m no expert but here’s my 2 cents. Last year I tried the tp orange secondary spring, prior to using this spring I hadn’t blown a belt the whole first season. I blew 3 belts in 500 kms with the tp orange. I had it at the recommended 70 degrees and went as low as 40 degrees. Clutches were smoking hot and I took out 3 belts in one trip. ( I didn’t bring my stock spring with me).

I got home and put in the dalton black orange in and ended up at 3-3. 2000’ pulls back to back to back, cool clutches and no blown belts. I trail ride with this setup and have yet to blow another belt. All this with a 41/35 dalton.

So the other day I thought I’d try the 35 for the hell of it. I wrapped it at 6-1 and went for a ride. I made some good pulls on the rail bed but I could hear it slipping. I stopped and clutches were smoking hot and rubber all over my sheaves.

Maybe I’m out to lunch but my sled seems to work better with more helix and less spring force. Cool clutches all day long. Again my 2 cents.

What belt are you using and what lug height track?

 

[DMCTurbo]

What belt are you using and what lug height track?

8jp & 1.25 rip 2 cut down to 1"

 

[1nc 2000]

8jp & 1.25 rip 2 cut down to 1"

Thanks

 

[Beerman]

Thanks for the feedback. I am running pretty much the same thing and had good results this past weekend. Didn't get to test as much as I hoped as most lakes were drifted but it ran well. I am running 77.3g total though and at 8900ish. I'm surprised you aren't way high on RPM with those weights empty. I'm running the blk/blue in the primary so pretty much the same finish. I did find the white at 9-1 seemed to slip at real low speeds like around a gas station. Seemed much better at 0-1. I'm also running the 8DN so that could be the difference in RPM now that I think about it. I'm going to try the straight 35 in two weekends just to compare.

The BLK/BLU would definitely need more weight, it's a good bit stiffer than the BLK/GRN. I have the BLK/BLU and will likely try it a different day. The snow was pretty soft, I'm sure if I could have found a long enough icy road that I would have been over 9000 rpm and need more weight. Knapp also recommended trying the 8DN for more consistency, which I will. One change at a time.

 

[KnappAttack]

Well, once we got the secondaries lined up, it was time to go after the clutching. ClutchMaster was trying to tell us last season about these ailments on the alignment and the secondaries. Hurricane hooked us up on the alignment bar thank goodness, and I took a different look at what I had been doing and how the "normal" winder clutching wasn't working for me. ClutchMaster told us last season we needed to try something different, so I listened, and he was right. I set aside my drag racing knowledge about really not wanting heavy driven springs to slow the shift and gave it a try, no guts, no glory right.

I finally got around to it and tried the heavier Cat springs in the field early January and have had huge success since. No more top end wall like I was hitting using the black/orange and the best thing no more belt blowing!

Even with the heavier Cat springs, I can still get slippage if not wrapped tight enough depending on belt being used (compound differences), helix angle being used, and wrap or side pressure being used along with actual HP being run and traction. The amount of side pressure needed is dependent on all these factors.

Now using these heavier Cat secondary springs is nothing new on boosted Yamaha's, if you look back thru time in the turbo/supercharger forum, they have been needed and used on many high a high HP Apex, Nytro and Viper for quite some time. I just couldn't run the recipe that others were using with any success with the Black/Orange on the big tunes in the secondary, so I had to search out a new avenue, and the heavier Cat spring happened to be the ticket even on the Winder. I no longer hit that wall up top and no longer have what I thought was track ratchet or track vibration way upstairs. The black/orange might be fine for ice or road running or low lug tracks, but forget about it with more traction on taller tracks in actual snow or trail conditions. It just wasn't working for me.

Also nice is the ability to run the 8DN without slippage and much cooler clutches along with improved consistency and belts lasting longer than 300 miles! Hopeful that rollers will last longer as well without getting pounded out every time a belt blows.