Apex Mountain Clutching - Need Ideas/Help

[Theicor]

Allright, I have to break down and post on this subject, but I have been beating my head against the wall on trying to optimize the clutching on my NA 2006 Apex. I have done numerous searches looking for ideas and tips on trying to squeeze any more performance out of this machine without jumping to the big HP adders. I am running into a wall. Hoping you guys and gals can help me in the right direction. here are the specifics to start off...

2006 Apex Mtn. - no reverse
Boss seat, under tunnel exhaust, Holz skid, Floats up front, airbox mod and R&M vent kit.
Elevation of 6000-10000 ft, targeting 8000 ft.

I rode the sled bone stock the first couple of rides and decided it needed some changes, so I made a phone call and spent $300 and got the "trick" setup and I thought I would be in business. Clutching and gearing were bone stock to start.

Put in a 19T top gear, and set up the primary with 89A-10 weights initially with the 13.3 and 10.3 rivets in for a weight of about 54.6 grams.
Spring is yellow-pink-yellow and I have the 14.5 mm rollers installed as well.

Secondary was replaced with a Team TSS-98 with a 58-42-.46 helix and red-black spring.

First ride out on the trail at 6000 ft. and I am pulling 9500 RPM... WTF?
Drilled out the 10.3 rivet, next ride pulling ~10,200 RPM.
Gonna need more when I get up high so I drilled out the 13.3 rivet, now ~10,800 RPM.

Up high the motor bogs terribly and is loaded so hard that it never cleans out and gets beyond 9000-9500 RPMs. If it does spin up that high in perfect snow conditions, it has incredible track speed, but can never acheive that when I really need it, and I cannot get that motor to spin up.

I suspect the secondary is my issue now as I really cant take any more weight out of the primary. That dang secondary gets awfully warm too. Here are the questions I have been pondering...

Why was the primary weight so far off from what should have been a cookie cutter recipe for this setup in my opinion?

Is the secondary really having that much affect? I do suspect this, however I have never really been that good at tuning the Team secondary, and have never really been that impressed with it except for on flat land applications, I only put it on this sled because "that" was the "trick" setup.

What are other guys running for secondarys? I have read a lot about this shockwave helix, but it seems that no one has really experimented with roller secondarys on the four strokes. Was that just a two-stroke fad? I would assume that a roller secondary would offer the same advantages. I also have a Roller Rooster secondary which I have had good luck with on other sleds, and am curious if I should give that a shot.

If anyone can help point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated, because I am tired of throwing good money away. This current setup is not the answer IMO, and needs some help. Any thoughts???

Thanks!

 

[GotJuice]

some help

two words.... TOM HARTMAN, call him and he can answer you questions with solid results! Sounds like the secondary isn't shifting properly or resistant....? Another member who runs a TEAM secondary is "powdermuncher" he loves his and states there is NO comparison once dialed to the stock button ramped secondary! He has several posts in the section pm him and he can also help a brotha out....great guy, YEARS of experience!

 

[Jabber]

the 58/42.46 helix is your problem. Been there done that. I use a 50/34.46 or a straight cut 34 degree if I am in 3' of pow at 7000tf. The team secondary is awesome for back shift but the 4 stroke need to run a smaller angle due to their tourqe curve.

 

[Theicor]

Thanks for the responses so far. Sooo, we are leaning towards a poor secondary setup??? That's great because I love buying TEAM helixes... (sarcasm) : ) And I suppose I'll have to add weight back to the primary if I get the secondary pulling better, Thats not too big of a deal though.

Any other ideas or comments are welcome!!!

 

[GotJuice]

YEAH What the hell

What the HELL I'll say it, since this is a "Tom Hartman" set up and he was that far off for your application then he should be trading you for the right HELIX.....not a lot of complaints in his direction but he obviously dropped the ball on your set up and elevation needs.
Free speech my man, if this is happening then I damn sure don't wanna be spending money on trial and error and having everyone say his kits work perfect. We all make mistakes but it's how they are handled ...especially when you buy the 'WHOLE SET UP" from Hartman and it doesn't work from day one....they need to make it right! I'd call him and complain until something is done....he's known to be a good guy so this shouldn't be to big a problem.
cheers.....

 

[Jabber]

this is my setup,it works, and so far I love it.
8bu 10 weights with 10.3 alum rivet in the heel only, orange pink orange primary spring, 14.5 rollers, 19/42 gears, black red secondary spring, 50/24.46 helix.
this set up pulls good in the steep and deep and too high on the hard packed trail. I hit the rev limiter on the trails but I pulls a steady 10500 to 10800 in the pow at 6000-7000 ft.
I hate buying team helixes as well and now own 6 of them. Team is clearing out their tss98 helixes at $50 a piece, so a good time to get another.

 

[MT RX1 Mountain Man]

I just put the Outlaw Motorsports setup on mine which includes the Shockwave helix. I haven't really put many miles on it yet or done much tinkering with it so the jury is still out....

 

[Theicor]

Okay, this is good stuff, I've got a lead on a 50/34.46 - 52/36.46 helix for that secondary and I also have a Red/DkBlue spring I can play with, but would probably stick with the red/black. I have some of the 10.3 aluminum rivets if I need to add some weight back in, but looking at the profiles and curves of the 89A-10 weights, I think I should be allright with the yellow-pink-yellow combination and the primary setup seems pretty solid. I think I just need to keep the secondary from overshifting.

Does this sound like a good place to start???

Thanks for the input! Any additional feedback is greatly appreciated!