Interesting Yamablog post about Skis

[Crewchief47]

http://snowmobiles.yamahablogs.ca/2009/ ... -straight/

January 22, 2009
Ride Straight
One of the most common product requests we have is, at first blush, a very simple one and one that I hear constantly from friends in the media as well as our dealers. When is Yamaha going to change the ski’s to something newer?

Good question. I will likely raise a couple of eyebrows for trying to address this but I think most of you will understand and appreciate that I am only offering another opinion to the ongoing conversation. Truth be known we have been working on a new ski, off and on for several years… still are. I won’t go into the details but one thing we face at every turn is patent frustrations. There are only so many things you can do to a ski (or carbide) and over the years most have been done and many patents filed. We are splitting hairs to find something that doesn’t come close to someones elses design. Funny thing however, I am not all that convinced we really need one!

Now I better explain that! From a marketing POV we absolutely need a new ski, simply because of all the negative comments I’ve heard and read both in print and on line. From a performance and handling POV, those who have experimented with some of the latest carbide runner designs will most likely concur with the following opinion:

It is not the ski so much as the carbide runner that needs to be addressed.

In fact, our current ski has changed significantly, since its first inception in 1999. It has seen numerous updates and versions. We still have part numbers for the shallow keel (Vmax style) deep keel (ViperS / early RX-1) mid keel (Apex / Vector) saddle type (original), saddle-less (current), wide (TF / VK) and mountain. Within each of those categories there have been tweaks to keel angles as well as axle mounting locations.

Interesting side bar: Jon has been experimenting with our wide ski on his XTX after trying one at a joint test. He pulled the boards off an 09 Venture TF along with a set of piggy back Floats and bolted it all up. Low and behold the steering effort was terrible, making harder to maneuver but the darting is improved. Turns out the sled he rode in the US had VK skis, not TF skis which appear identical, hmmm, upon closer inspection the mounting hole is not the same (ahead of the VK Pro) consequently the TF boards are pulled back towards the snow-flap effectively changing everything. The lesson in this should be applied to any aftermarket or OE ski-swap. Has the chosen ski been developed for and tested on the sled in question? Slap on a set of Pilots designed for a different chassis and weight bias and expectations are what?

Before proceeding, I must drop in a little caveat: ‘Darting’ is characteristic of snowmobiling. All snowmobiles will exhibit darting under certain conditions, it is the nature of the beast when there are many sled tracks in packed snow.

If you are looking to reduce (eliminate) darting, dial in the amount of ‘push’ or under-steer and or improve predictability, these can all be achieved to a large degree by simply changing the carbide runners. You really don’t need to change the ski to make some significant alterations to the ride character. I am not saying you won’t get similar results from a new set of skis (however there are many types and levels) but the runner, IMHO is at the crux of the matter.

There is an interesting ‘poll’ thread on-going over on TY discussing the virtues of two particular carbide designs. I was able to relate as I began my ski experiments a long time ago. I will only go as far back as the first RX-1 deep-keel where I discovered I was not man enough to hang onto the bars of the beast using the stock set-up. That first year I upgraded the sway-bar to a 13 mill with the new links, changed to the mid-keel ski ( a gift from a friend in testing) and hooked up the rear end with a pre-pro RipSaw track, much better, but still ‘darty’, next came thicker host bar, more aggressive carbides, more ski lift…

The following year I moved to the Simmons ski which was working pretty good until I got behind a bunch of REV tracks which btw, seemed strikingly similar to the Simmons… gave them away to Tom and moved back to a mid-keel and duallies… Things got a lot smoother but a small top speed loss and a few missing chips had me thinking. Along comes the Apex (same ski) and more new players in the dual carbide game, tried a couple more designs then stumbled upon a new single skag out of Quebec which came highly recommended from some respected dealer friends (Irwin’s and Markham Mower) The Cobra Head by Qulaipiece offered some quantifiable benefits with its integrated ‘corrector’ (which I first remember seeing in UHMW form coming out of Quebec when everyone had steel skis, to reduce darting fifteen years ago). I have been running these for a couple of seasons until now, which after reading about the Snowtrackers in Supertrax and researching them, I decided to give a set a try. I am going to save my evaluation for another day but I will say I am impressed and quite satisfied with the handling traits. I have not felt any sled track any straighter than what I have experienced so far with these on my Apex. I am using the semi-aggressive Snowtracker but I still need to try the aggressive model for comparison. (many thanks to my friend Richard (Coyote) for hooking me up.)

Another thing that strikes me, the original corrector, (the plastic shim that was affixed to the front of many ski’s to reduce darting), came out of Quebec and currently (IMHO) the best hi-tech single skag carbides all have built in ‘correctors’ and also come out of Quebec. I conclude that the Quebec trail system which is ranked as one of the best in the world, has led the charge of anti-darting accessories as a result of the smooth, fast and snowy conditions which are their norm.Maybe this is just a Canadian thing but I don’t think so, it is just more prevelant on fast, smooth trails.

Most of the trails I have ridden in the mid-west are so tight and bumpy it’s hard to realize the level of darting because there is so much other stuff going on. My point is, not everyone will experience the same level of ‘darting’ based on the local conditions and perhaps the runner will not be so important to the overall handling. That said however I still maintain that any of our performance snowmobiles can benefit from a high-tech runner to some degree and the vast majority of owners do not need to change out the ski to achieve great handling.

I think of carbides much as I do tires. Most OE tires on cars and trucks are cheap versions that eventually get replaced with superior rubber to yield improved traction and handling. Like carbides, stock tires are a wearable part that will do the job but when it comes time to replace, most performance minded drivers will select something more suited to their conditions and preference.

Whenever I am asked what one thing would I recommend to dial in a Yamaha trail sled, assuming a good PDI (including ski alignment, 0-toe and suspension set-up), I always say a new set of carbide runners. Bake the stockers and try something new. It’s not a one size fits all formula, you have to do a little research considering all the conditions under which you ride , overall sled set-up and riding style. I am convinced the right carbide will negate the need for a new ski and enhance your overall experience and satisfaction.

Cheers cr

 

[radianguy]

A great read, but my problem with the stock skis is not just the darting( I fixed this on my Vector BTW with suspension adjustments) but the lack of floatation off trail, the stock skis are just too narrow for the 4 stroke!

 

[big_red1a]

problem with the stock skis is not just the darting but the lack of floatation off trail, the stock skis are just too narrow for the 4 stroke!

100% correct need somthing between the mountain and the trail. I have simmons and they float better but dual carbides not the answer for a heavy sled (you get a work out at slow speeds)

 

[Stu]

problem with the stock skis is not just the darting but the lack of floatation off trail, the stock skis are just too narrow for the 4 stroke!

100% correct need somthing between the mountain and the trail. I have simmons and they float better but dual carbides not the answer for a heavy sled (you get a work out at slow speeds)

Yeap, that was my problem. I spend more time off of trails than on, and most of the time I would be a submarine! I got ahold of some slydog powderhounds...man are those things wide! Only a single carbide so the steering effort is not greatly increased. From the first time I took them out for a run across fresh powder I was amazed at the difference! I could actually see my skis!

 

[BURMAD69]

If he doesnt see a problem with stock yammy ski's he's smoking something, Ivew been on yammy's for 35 years and their skis were always substandard. (nice way of saying junk)

 

[zoomzoom]

I have the "extreme snotrackers on my apex and I can honestly say that I experience no darting at all. I can ride all day 50mph one handed. That is NOT an Exaggeration.

 

[BETHEVIPER]

Yamaha needs to buy from kimpex the rights to market the Arrow on the new sleds and make it like, 6.5 wide, maybe a little wider inside than out to keep the width correct for trailers.
No darting on any condition and greater flotation. Yamaha would go from one of the worst skis to one of the best skis.


I like reading yamablog but sometimes I find myself thinking, does this guy really think this?? Or is he typing with the yamaha gun to his back??

 

[scott32]

Agreed Chewchief. We should ask all these guys that that say the ski's are a POS, if when they change to an aftermarket ski, do they re-install the stock runner. My guess being no. Last year I changed my stock runners off my 05 Rage with a set my dealer had on special (not sure on make) and like zoom said, one hand all day long. Until you hit the fun flipper and need two hands. General all purpose seems to be yammi's target. Aftermarket specialty item in every area will always be there. No manufacturing company will make one thing for everyone. Good read Crewchief. Hoprfully everyone reads the whole thing rather than picking apart half a speach. "Read like a woman, take it all in."

 

[BombaPolaYama]

If he doesnt see a problem with stock yammy ski's he's smoking something, Ivew been on yammy's for 35 years and their skis were always substandard. (nice way of saying junk)

So true. I guess that denial type attitude is exactly the reason why Yamaha hasn't fixed the problem themselves. Why try to keep defending something that is indenfensible?(sp??) And it should not be expensive to fix - why reinvent the wheel - there are lots of good aftermarket skis. What is sad about this ski issue is that many riders don't realize how bad the skis are, for example, some have asked me why I changed the skis like I've done something silly. They don't realize how much more fun snowmobiling would be if they had decent skis and carbides.

Like someone else said here, the skis are just too narrow for a heavy 4 stroke and they sink in soft trails and that has nothing to do with carbides. Before I added the Slydogs I would have to wrestle to get it out of another track because it would just settle right in. No doubt the carbides help the steering effort but I think flotation has more to do with it - steering effort is greatly reduced. It was expensive for me but worth it so far.

 

[Grimm]

The stock Yamaha ski is the WORST OEM ski out there right now. Changing the carbide runner would improve handling sure, but everyone does that anyways.

Yamaha, change the design! So old tech design may have been acceptable 10 years ago, but not today. Your test riders know it, the media know it, your designers know it and here is the most important ones to consider...your customers know it.

Make them W I D E R !

 

[bluthru]

I agree w/ chief...I had put 2500 miles on my '08 Apex LTX before installing a 13mm sway bar and extreme Snow trackers. This sled is now perfect for me and my riding style! It stays flat and corners on a rail..there is no darting at all...NONE! I can't detect any push and the ski lift is very minimal and very predictable. The rear will break free as needed for me, It has a great feel in and out of the corner! This IMO was the best $300 I could have spent on this sled.

I will say that this sled still won't float well and new wider skis would be a must for powder riding. My sled was not set up well from the dealer, it was a demo sled that had 800 miles on it. It had 8" shaper bars w/o studs...maybe the worst combination possible for darting! I suffered with it for most of this season, including 1500 miles in Quebec. I can only say that I wished I had made these changes sooner. My decision was made by reading posts here and studying what others had done to similar sleds. I just rode 100 miles in very very thin conditions...5 miles of bare, plowed, muddy, logging roads. The trackers did wear, the front "ramp" seemed to take the worst of it, but they held up better then I would have expected under those extreme conditions. They are still straight and all the carbide is still intact.

My next purchase may be studs. What do you all recommend? What make, size, qty. and pattern? I do not want to lose the feel the sled has now but would like some safer braking and cornering on ice.

Scott32 great quote! "Read like a woman, take it all in."

 

[Grimm]

Install a prestudded Ice Ripper XT. No drilling the track, no torquing studs, no replacing broken/bent studs, no holes in track, no maintnance.

 

[BETHEVIPER]

Agreed Chewchief. We should ask all these guys that that say the ski's are a POS, if when they change to an aftermarket ski, do they re-install the stock runner. My guess being no. Last year I changed my stock runners off my 05 Rage with a set my dealer had on special (not sure on make) and like zoom said, one hand all day long. Until you hit the fun flipper and need two hands. General all purpose seems to be yammi's target. Aftermarket specialty item in every area will always be there. No manufacturing company will make one thing for everyone. Good read Crewchief. Hoprfully everyone reads the whole thing rather than picking apart half a speach. "Read like a woman, take it all in."

This statement doesn't follow the normal flow of what people do. You ride the sled. Want better handling. Install better carbides. This causes better handling but with more darting. Then they start looking for other skis. I doubt most are comparing their 3in carbide to a completely new ski.

Some people dont care, they ride their sled oblivious to darting. I will ride others sleds and think, how can they stay on the trail. They say, I don't have a darting problem.

my dealer finally bought a set of Arrows for his demo sled and could not believe what a difference it made in the sled, easy steering and no darting, great bite, all the things lacking in the stock skis.

There are a few patten pictures out there of ski designs that yamaha have filled, hopefully they do something.

 

[scott32]

It was just pionted out on here by more than just myself that installing a different runner took away any darting and greatly improved handling. Hence the ski is not the issue. Once again you're trying to pick holes and coming up short of success.

 

[EsonPZ]

problem with the stock skis is not just the darting but the lack of floatation off trail, the stock skis are just too narrow for the 4 stroke!

100% correct need somthing between the mountain and the trail. I have simmons and they float better but dual carbides not the answer for a heavy sled (you get a work out at slow speeds)

Exactly what i was thinking. A ski that is designed like the mountain ski, but with a little bit less agressive keel. That would be the pefect ski imo.