Looking for a comparison between M-10 & new Monoshock

[greenmntpass]

I've got a question for you Ty demo riders who have spent time on the new Apex's and have also logged miles on M10 suspension. Do you find them closely comparible or not? In my group I'll be the only one on a Yamaha and I'm hearing alot about how good the M10 is and the Monoshock just couldn't be as good. My gut feeling from what I've read they're going to be close. I'd like to hear it from you guys who have demoed the new ones. Thanks.

 

[APEX 21]

I compared the m-10 with my 03 rx-1 and it was night and day. After riding my 03, I rode a 06 Apex. That was also a night and day difference. I would rate the monoshock to be in the same league, but not superior. The seat will make a difference as well. The adjustability of the mono will out shine the m-10. example when we go out saddlebagging our guys adjust the m10 for that weight. We may do some loops without bags and the guys dont find it easy to re-adjust

 

[TT670]

There was a time when the M-10 was king, that day has passed and the oems are building some good stuff that IMO is better all around. Just a few downsides of the M-10 vs Mono RA: no weight transfer, scrubs speed, high maintenance, very sensitive to setup. I dont doubt the mono RA has it all over the M-10.

 

[LazyBastard]

The mono suspension actually has a lot more similarities to the expertx suspension than the m10. They are both designed to allow the rail to pivot at the center... the expertx accomplishes this by actually putting the pivot in the center, the mono accomplishes this by linking the front to the back with the spring... what this means is that when the back is compressed, so is the spring, which in turn forces the front down.

Conventional skids, including the m10, the older yamaha proaction, and the yamaha proactive skids, have separate springs operating the front of the skid vs. the back of the skid. Effectively, compressing the back of the skid has no effect on the front. They are designed this way because before coupling, they HAD to be designed this way in order to limit transfer.... transfer always used to be regulated by the rear SPRING.

At some point along the way, someone decided that it would be nice to have adjustable transfer (was that Yamaha by any chance?). This was an interesting compromise because it REDUCED the transfer limiting function of the rear spring, and added a transfer LIMITER. Now suspension coupling has the side effect of making the ride somewhat more HARSH.

Here we start to see the first difference with m10 that makes it softer.... IT DOES NOT HAVE TRANSFER LIMITERS, and rather than relying on the old idea of using the rear spring instead, it has FULL COUPLING with an absolutely fixed frame. It accomplishes the center-pivot by not pivoting AT ALL. As a result, m10 has very poor weight transfer.

Now here is why the mono is really cool: The shock links the front arm to the back arm and moves the overall pivot point to halfway between the two arms (which I've said before), which has the effect of getting rid of that horrible kick that came with the older coupling suspensions. All the while still BEING a coupling suspension and providing lots of weight transfer when you want it, or very little weight transfer when you don't want it.

 

[Viper34]

Actually the M-10 and Mono have similiar function, they are both falling rate suspensions, which means for every inch of travel towards full compression your shock stroke is decreasing. This is what's giving you the ride comfort (soft ride). The negative to this can be the sudden bottoming. That is why M-10 has the small inner spring on the rear shock. For example the new torsion spring suspension is basically a linear rate, I believe Cat and Pol are rising rate.

A control rod allows the center and rear shocks to work together and also control the amount of weight transfer. When the gap in the control rod is used up, your suspension is now coupled. M10, Pro Action,Pro Active most all suspension are designed the same way. By allowing the center and rear shock to work together, you reduce the front to rear up down pitching of the slide rails. This is where the Mono skid differs by only having one shock, but still function the same.

A fully coupled suspension would be very stiff feeling in small bumps as you are using both the center and rear shocks together (coupled), this is not the case with the M-10, it is not fully coupled.

I found the M-10 to work great for casual to medium speed trail rides, but when you push hard in the rough is goes to s**t in a hurry.


IN FACT M10 was the first to have the coupled suspension, adjustable too. They tried to sue Yamaha over it.

 

[APEX 21]

i forgot to add, that I hope the 06 monoshock will out shine the m10 for trail riding (all types) I will know more after a few hundred miles. I also never had the oportunity to pound on the m10.

 

[Oak Hill]

I've ridden an M10 and seen all the maintenance and problems associaited with that suspension. I feel the Mono is the best suspension to date and will be hard to beat. Money you would spend on an M10 would be better spent on other areas (clutch kit, carbides, studs, ect).

 

[dave583]

Sorry guys but NO WAY!!! I have been on an m-10 for over 4 years now and nothing compares. I have ridden the mono a couple of times so i am not an authority on it but the time i have spent on it i can tell you that it is no m-10. 1st of all the disadvatages of an m-10 are heavily outweighted by the advantages. For trail riding the m-10 is the ultimate in ride quality. Also the m-10 has the widest range of tunability. If you want a cush ride it is the cushiest, but you can crank up the FRA and jump like a madman, in minutes. Never bottom out. The mono has not proven this to me. It may be the best OEM suspension out there but it is no m-10!

 

[snowbeast]

Hi lazy does the old or new RA mono skid still have the limiter strap adjuster like my 03 rx1 skid had,it is still nice to be able to adjust the limiter strap,right on the trail.

 

[welterracer]

Ive ridden both...

They are both great suspensions... and the only complaint about the M-10 is the rattle from the center rear spring (overload spring) when the sled is idiling (twostroke) and the loss of topend!

The monoshock is Supersoft and comfortable... where i think the M-10 is more for aggressive riding.. but suspensions are highly adjustable (if you like to do it)

Either way you couldnt possible go wrong.. like i said they are both awsome suspensions.. Way better than the old proaction/proactive junk

 

[LazyBastard]

Actually the M-10 and Mono have similiar function, they are both falling rate suspensions, which means for every inch of travel towards full compression your shock stroke is decreasing. This is what's giving you the ride comfort (soft ride). The negative to this can be the sudden bottoming. That is why M-10 has the small inner spring on the rear shock. For example the new torsion spring suspension is basically a linear rate, I believe Cat and Pol are rising rate.

Check again. Mono is in fact RISING RATE (the front arm and back arm squeeze the spring against each other. Each individually would be falling rate against a fixed object, but TOGETHER they rise.), but that particular point is irrelevant. I'm not discussing the shocks, but the FRAME GEOMETRY.

A control rod allows the center and rear shocks to work together and also control the amount of weight transfer. When the gap in the control rod is used up, your suspension is now coupled. M10, Pro Action,Pro Active most all suspension are designed the same way. By allowing the center and rear shock to work together, you reduce the front to rear up down pitching of the slide rails. This is where the Mono skid differs by only having one shock, but still function the same.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. There is NO CONTROL ROD on M10. The arms are FIXED LENGTH. That means that if you compress the front, you are also compressing the back. There is NO UNCOUPLED GAP.

And mono does NOT function the same. That point BEFORE the suspension couples is where it differs. Mono (and expertx) allow the rail to pivot FREELY at the center of the rail, giving them MUCH MORE TRANSFER than other skids which force you to COMPRESS the rear springs in order to transfer.

A fully coupled suspension would be very stiff feeling in small bumps as you are using both the center and rear shocks together (coupled), this is not the case with the M-10, it is not fully coupled.

I dont know where you came up with this idea?? What does being coupled have to do with being stiff? I'll tell you... NOTHING.

And about M10 being not fully coupled... SHOW ME WHERE on the M10 that the back arm is allowed to CHANGE LENGTH (uncouple).

I found the M-10 to work great for casual to medium speed trail rides, but when you push hard in the rough is goes to s**t in a hurry.

No kidding. Its falling rate!!!

IN FACT M10 was the first to have the coupled suspension, adjustable too. They tried to sue Yamaha over it.

Of course its coupled. FULLY.
There is no way to ROCK the sled on its rails.

 

[Viper34]

Check again. Mono is in fact RISING RATE (the front arm and back arm squeeze the spring against each other. Each individually would be falling rate against a fixed object, but TOGETHER they rise.), but that particular point is irrelevant. I'm not discussing the shocks, but the FRAME GEOMETRY

Mono is a falling rate suspension.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. There is NO CONTROL ROD on M10. The arms are FIXED LENGTH. That means that if you compress the front, you are also compressing the back. There is NO UNCOUPLED GAP.

And mono does NOT function the same. That point BEFORE the suspension couples is where it differs. Mono (and expertx) allow the rail to pivot FREELY at the center of the rail, giving them MUCH MORE TRANSFER than other skids which force you to COMPRESS the rear springs in order to transfer

ABSOLUTELY WRONG- YES the M-10 has a coupling control gap. And the mono also has a coupling control gap.

dont know where you came up with this idea?? What does being coupled have to do with being stiff? I'll tell you... NOTHING.

If a suspension has no control rod gap, it will be stiffer in small bumps because both shocks are compressing at the SAME time, if you have your control rod gap set correctly your suspension will not fully couple in smaller bumps. To set your control rod gap, simply sit on the machine and make sure you have equal distance at top and bottom of the control rod gap.

And about M10 being not fully coupled... SHOW ME WHERE on the M10 that the back arm is allowed to CHANGE LENGTH (uncouple).

Regardless how the coupling is control (arm length, stopped block..ect) it is still a coupling suspension, look at the picture below, the rear arm is allowed to slide down and back. When this arm slides all the way down the suspension is now fully coupled and both shocks work together.

 

[LazyBastard]

I still don't see what the F you're talking about, but regardless, EVEN IF IT IS a partially coupled suspension, it is STILL just working one arm to the rail, and NOT the two arms to each other. That being the case, UNLIKE the mono, it does NOT have a center -pivot, it has a FRONT-pivot.


Now about that idea you seem to have about two shocks being harder than one, WHAT IF those two shocks are HALF AS HARD? You think that if we put a railway shock onto an RX1-mono that it might ride anything like a TRAIN? My bet is that it does.

Take a look at the mono's control rod. It is connecting the ARMS directly to each other opposite the spring... THIS IS THE BIG DIFFERENCE THAT MAKES MONO (and expertx) COOL.... It will ACTUALLY COUPLE the arms, rather than dragging the arms by pulling on the rail, which ***KEY POINT THAT YOU SEEM TO KEEP MISSING*** causes it to pivot BETWEEN the arms halfway up the rail. Expertx accomplishes it differently, but the effect is the SAME.


Now you go back to M10 and look at it carefully. You hit against the front, it pushes the rail back, which PULLS the rear shock up. The only reason this isn't as harsh as the other SAME THING suspensions is that it uses a falling rate which is EASY TO PULL against.

Look back at mono... the front and the rear ACT AS ONE. Hit against the front, PUSH AGAINST THE CONTROL ROD (not the rail) compress the spring.



Oh, did I mention... you NEVER want to ride a mono with a damaged control rod. Very dangerous. Bad stuff can happen.

 

[Viper34]

 

[Superman]

I think it was Supertrax or Snowtech last year that made a reference to the Mono-shock being a rising rate......Anyway I was under this impression. That was like the remote adjuster being for compression when infact it is mainly a rebound tool. Viper34 why all the little discrepencies? :?