sidewinder engagement

[ROCKERDAN]

When you tried the blue dalton did you try it with the heavy hitters?

No i did not....the entire TP kit went in then, and remains in his sled.

I did not have glide washers either prior to the TP kit.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

I was trying to get rpms up higher to get rid of that delay in bottom end, Dale sent me a few to try.

At the time, the Blue was with open dalton weights,(so 70g on scale) and I liked that best for trail riding.

Green, it just was not trail friendly, .....likely great for racing though.

Now if the 70s were loaded up to 76grams or so, the green may have engaged lower and been better. When I talk to Dale I often buy a few springs since they are cheap, to get it where I want it.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

What's the engagement with the black/green?

Depends what you run for weights, as you see TP runs a much lesser spring with his HH kit.

Good to have a few springs to test with.

 

[Moodeyblue]

Just bought some daltom weights today and 33/35 helix. I will play around with these weights and spring (green for now) for the best combination of engagement and still trailable. I still feel we need to get this engagement up to get closer to the power band for take off. hopefully around the 4000 rpm range for this machine?

 

[Turbo Dynamics]

I was trying to get rpms up higher to get rid of that sluggish bottom end, Dale sent me a few to try.
Dan

You keep talking about the sled being sluggish, and I believe you. But I wonder if that sled had anything wrong with it?
A tuned Sidewinder is NOT supposed to be sluggish...
In this video we show a stock cat vs an ecotrail sidewinder with dalton weights and Dalton weights (same as our kit) and a stock secondary and 8JP stock belt.
Then we put powertrail later in the vid and just anhillate the cat. Then the cat gets upgraded to ecotrail and weights and is a better race but Powertrail still pulls away of course.
I just don't see the sluggishness you are talking about.
Powertrail has won a ton of races up in New brunswick where there are races every weekend. With the antilag now even more so. No one ever complained about sluggishness.

BTW dan the stock modified muffler you want to hear, it's in this video and you can compare to the super quiet and Turbo Force. Check the end of the video.

I'd love to look over that sled and test it. My shop isn't that far ? Maybe a trip to Ottawa region would be fun ?

 

[@123]

What's the engagement with the black/green?

with my supertips with 14g at tip its too high with bg its 5000 rpm i like better bwb but i didn’t ride it yet

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Just bought some daltom weights today and 33/35 helix. I will play around with these weights and spring (green for now) for the best combination of engagement and still trailable. I still feel we need to get this engagement up to get closer to the power band for take off. hopefully around the 4000 rpm range for this machine?

Keep me posted on what you think, and where engagement is. Which weights did you buy? 70g?

thnx
Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

You keep talking about the sled being sluggish, and I believe you. But I wonder if that sled had anything wrong with it?
A tuned Sidewinder is NOT supposed to be sluggish...
In this video we show a stock cat vs an ecotrail sidewinder with dalton weights and Dalton weights (same as our kit) and a stock secondary and 8JP stock belt.
Then we put powertrail later in the vid and just anhillate the cat. Then the cat gets upgraded to ecotrail and weights and is a better race but Powertrail still pulls away of course.
I just don't see the sluggishness you are talking about.
Powertrail has won a ton of races up in New brunswick where there are races every weekend. With the antilag now even more so. No one ever complained about sluggishness.

BTW dan the stock modified muffler you want to hear, it's in this video and you can compare to the super quiet and Turbo Force. Check the end of the video.

I'd love to look over that sled and test it. My shop isn't that far ? Maybe a trip to Ottawa region would be fun ?

Ben....I usually use better wording when trying to describe Toms sled. I have not used sluggish before and It really is not a good description. I should edit that. I have tried to describe this for many months, and the word I used alot was "delay". I tend to think it is "turbo lag" but I did not want to use that term as It felt more like a timed event from the throttle whack, to the time the sled lurches.

And the HUGE problem with that when riding Toms, that we ALL felt....is on our tight trails, with many elevation drops/changes. Riding down a trail like our back trail, super tight so speeds are SLOW. On n off throttle. My 4tec 1200 with iTC will snap the skis up, lurching the sled ahead instantaneous to the throttle whack, so you come to a hilltop, you crack throttle and you fly off the knolls...same with the DOO 850, and exact same with the Assault. We all agreed the SW felt horribly heavy due to this DELAY. You whack the throttle on Toms SW, and the sled goes NOWHERE when you want it to, and you come down the other side of the knoll, and then the sled finally GOES, but its too late....you are already sitting in the hole beyond the knoll. I told the guys I could not ride that sled anymore, and rode the Assault that day....My bud Dano who got the SW said exact same thing, and I loved the Assault(and Im NOT a polaris lover at all...lol) it would snap the front end instantly.

Now when we get out further some bigger trails, where we are rolling 45mph min up to 55ish....now that is when the SW became a total blast, and absolute animal...and lakes, obviously the SW is just plain GONE!

I have watched your videos many many time, and watched many other videos....Excell has probably the best one, as the guy whacks throttle from a dead stop, and you can TIME the delay, it might look like very little but its what makes the 2s and 4tec NA sleds so much more fun in tight trails....In your videos, the delay is there....just watch the throttle get pushed and wait a split second, then sled goes....

Im certain its just how A TURBO SLED reacts off the line, since the engine is decompressed and no boost off the hop. Im sure a turbo that runs full compression is much more instant on bottom. I know the 4tec 1200 doo comes out strong from 16 onward when compared to a decompressed 1200...So I believe it is just how these SW are.

Unfortunately I NEVER got to ride or try any other SW all season, to compare. The biggest thing im looking forward to on my new SW for 18, is that I want to ride it 100% stock first, and I will know right away if that is how these are, or if Toms has something wrong. But from all the videos Ive watched, I can detect that same delay, its something many will never know about until they want to ride it off jumps like a 2stroke guy rides....then it becomes very apparent.

Here is the vid from excell....listen closely and watch the throttle whack, and there is a delay before sled lurches. Similar to your videos. And I even think there is LESS delay with the stock muffler, possibly yam was able to reduce the "lag" with more backpressure. I will know alot more when I got 3 SW this seasons to all test side by side. Tom bought another so he now will have 2 and mine.


23 seconds, stock take off(very short delay).....
then 1:00 minute, stock modified muffler take off(tad more delay)......
then 1:35 minute, Excell muffler take off, even more delay can be heard....

You can hear and see the delay, and it gets LONGER when going to a more open exhaust. Stock is shorter.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

with my supertips with 14g at tip its too high with bg its 5000 rpm i like better bwb but i didn’t ride it yet

That is what I had too, way too hi with green...5k engagement on trail riding is horrible.

 

[Turbo Dynamics]

That is what I had too, way too hi with green...5k engagement on trail riding is horrible.

That Dalton spring is perfect for the Dalton weights we sell. Because the dalton weights engage very low. That spring makes the rpm a bit higher and more responsive off the line...

 

[Turbo Dynamics]

Ben....I usually use better wording when trying to describe Toms sled. I have not used sluggish before and It really is not a good description. I should edit that. I have tried to describe this for many months, and the word I used alot was "delay". I tend to think it is "turbo lag" but I did not want to use that term as It felt more like a timed event from the throttle whack, to the time the sled lurches.

And the HUGE problem with that when riding Toms, that we ALL felt....is on our tight trails, with many elevation drops/changes. Riding down a trail like our back trail, super tight so speeds are SLOW. On n off throttle. My 4tec 1200 with iTC will snap the skis up, lurching the sled ahead instantaneous to the throttle whack, so you come to a hilltop, you crack throttle and you fly off the knolls...same with the DOO 850, and exact same with the Assault. We all agreed the SW felt horribly heavy due to this DELAY. You whack the throttle on Toms SW, and the sled goes NOWHERE when you want it to, and you come down the other side of the knoll, and then the sled finally GOES, but its too late....you are already sitting in the hole beyond the knoll. I told the guys I could not ride that sled anymore, and rode the Assault that day....My bud Dano who got the SW said exact same thing, and I loved the Assault(and Im NOT a polaris lover at all...lol) it would snap the front end instantly.

Now when we get out further some bigger trails, where we are rolling 45mph min up to 55ish....now that is when the SW became a total blast, and absolute animal...and lakes, obviously the SW is just plain GONE!

I have watched your videos many many time, and watched many other videos....Excell has probably the best one, as the guy whacks throttle from a dead stop, and you can TIME the delay, it might look like very little but its what makes the 2s and 4tec NA sleds so much more fun in tight trails....In your videos, the delay is there....just watch the throttle get pushed and wait a split second, then sled goes....

Im certain its just how A TURBO SLED reacts off the line, since the engine is decompressed and no boost off the hop. Im sure a turbo that runs full compression is much more instant on bottom. I know the 4tec 1200 doo comes out strong from 16 onward when compared to a decompressed 1200...So I believe it is just how these SW are.

Unfortunately I NEVER got to ride or try any other SW all season, to compare. The biggest thing im looking forward to on my new SW for 18, is that I want to ride it 100% stock first, and I will know right away if that is how these are, or if Toms has something wrong. But from all the videos Ive watched, I can detect that same delay, its something many will never know about until they want to ride it off jumps like a 2stroke guy rides....then it becomes very apparent.

Here is the vid from excell....listen closely and watch the throttle whack, and there is a delay before sled lurches. Similar to your videos. And I even think there is LESS delay with the stock muffler, possibly yam was able to reduce the "lag" with more backpressure. I will know alot more when I got 3 SW this seasons to all test side by side. Tom bought another so he now will have 2 and mine.


23 seconds, stock take off.....then 1:00 minute, stock modified muffler take off......then 1:35 minute, Excell muffler.

You can hear and see the delay, and it gets LONGER when going to a more open exhaust. Stock is shorter.

Dan

Ok I get what you are saying now. Maybe I'm too used to turbo sleds. They always have a very slight delay when hitting the throttle. The sidewinder is better than the 1100 in that regards.
But I still feel like the right combo of weights and spring the SW responds good. Very little delay. But yes until the turbo spool you don't have the same power.
Only way around that is Superchargers (but they make a lot less power) OR a Tiny turbocharger but again power will not be as high.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Ok I get what you are saying now. Maybe I'm too used to turbo sleds. They always have a very slight delay when hitting the throttle. The sidewinder is better than the 1100 in that regards.
But I still feel like the right combo of weights and spring the SW responds good. Very little delay. But yes until the turbo spool you don't have the same power.
Only way around that is Superchargers (but they make a lot less power) OR a Tiny turbocharger but again power will not be as high.

I think anti-lag would kick butt off the line, but that would be more for drag races ect...

Its too bad there is not a way to have more boost when in very slow trails so when you crack throttle the nose comes up and lurches instantly.....

Its mostly noticed by 2s guys, and my 4tec had that new iTC last two seasons which would near throw me off back of sled if not careful, and ofcourse Rmotion and the poo has BEST transfer out there, so it just jumps ahead.

Im hoping the RTX short track will have much better transfer....I did everything to Toms and the LTX just has poor transfer no matter what I did.

Dan

 

[Pstn head]

I don't believe this chassis will transfer like a Doo. In trail form (excluding Xtx, Mtx etc) this chassis is very much planted and refined that In turn delivers much faster average overall speeds. I find that when following buddies and not trying to keep up with them it doesn't take much more than a few corners and straights to catch them up if needed or wanting to, even in the form of a Viper.

 

[Moodeyblue]

Keep me posted on what you think, and where engagement is. Which weights did you buy? 70g?

thnx
Dan

I bought the 66 gram weights and 31/35 helix. I will get heavier weights if I decide to tune.

I am absolutely impressed by the service of Dalton. I ordered these parts Thurs at noon and received them Friday at 3:00 pm. He shipped these all the way from eastern Canada to Edmonton area, shipping.and only $18

 

[ROCKERDAN]

I bought the 66 gram weights and 31/35 helix. I will get heavier weights if I decide to tune.

I am absolutely impressed by the service of Dalton. I ordered these parts Thurs at noon and received them Friday at 3:00 pm. He shipped these all the way from eastern Canada to Edmonton area, shipping.and only $18

Dale of Dalton is the best, just a great guy to talk to and they do things right period.

OK, I was going to go that route too with weights, as I love the easy quick adjustment on the Daltons. But I would have had to get 66 for stocker(I was thinking same as you) and then need 70s at least for a tune later. And So that is why I leaned toward the STMs as they can add up to 32g per arm, so I can run them from stock map all the way up to 300hp or so.

What caught my eye though, is this 31/35 you got. Now that must be new, and Dale and I have gone back and forth alot about spooling on trail, and the flatter initial angle helix has been talked about alot. But even as of today, the lowest one on Dalton site is 32/38. So, is this new or did he and you have this made specifically? Very intersting as to your feedback on this helix at such a low angle.

I wonder where the cuttoff point will be, between a much heavier side pressure spring we are all gonna run, and now low angle helix at trail speeds, I wonder what will make it way to revvy, and not enough upshift....I guess this season will be alot of new testing for sure, we all want the bottom end to snap, since the top end is an animal its all about the clutching and earlier spool.

Dan