The following was from a discussion on the Artic Chat forums about the recent announcement that artic cat is likely shutting down after 2025. The poster claims to be an AC employee. Look at subsection e) where he talks about a new 4 stroke chassis and how it was years behind and how Yamaha was so frustrated about it. If true its pretty interesting and sort of fits with what we observed with Yamaha over the last several years. It always seemed like a new chasis was coming and then it would just never happen. It makes you wonder if their origial plan was to continue on with AC long term but what we didnt see was that it was actually AC collapsing behind the scenes that eventually led Yamaha to bail out. Thoughts?
<<As somone who worked with AC before, and during textron, They are ignorant and arrogant, absolutly refused to listen to anyone who knew the industry, their dealers, or their customers. There is not 1 single aspect of the business they didn't make worse, or more difficult.
1) The dealer situation was caused by textron, they canceled/forced out hundreds of dealers to ensure that tracker wouldn't have competition.
2) Build to order doesn't work very well, textron has done that already with AC.
3)The catalyst development was underway when textron took over. They got rid of the staff working on it, and shelved the project along with countless other projects.
a)The blast has almost 0 unique parts. Its a "parts bin special" and exists because AC had already developed a snow bike, and the engine for that was used in the blast (rest of the bike was sent to the crusher)
b)Under development with/for the catalyst was also a direct injection system for the new engine (not used because textron refused to fund development)
c)Under development with/for the catalyst was also a turbo system for the new engine (not used because textron refused to fund development) Gunnar Kleveland told a handfull of the top performing dealers they would be releaseing a turbo 600 years ago
d)Under development with/for the catalyst was also a new rear suspension design that used composite leaf style springs instead of metal springs/arm(s) (not used because textron refused to fund development) (and Brian Dick was fired)
e)Under development was a 4 stroke chassis, it being countless years behind was a major bone of contention between them and yamaha to the point yamaha was going to walk away more than once before they actually did. I've heard that in a meeting of hight ups in TRF Heidi McNary told yamaha if they don't like how long its taking they should design and build their own.
f)Under development were at least 2 new 4 stroke offerings (n/a and turbo) to be used in both dirt and snow sides of the business (I expected them to be seen at haydays last fall)
4) The major attraction for a buyer is the manufacturing facilities. The cost to replace/relocate would be a factor of 10 more that the sale price of the entire company. There may be enough room in TRF to move the production equipment from st cloud, but they built st cloud so they could have access to more/better skilled employees. Digi-key pays more than AC, and has significantly better benifits, after gutting the majority of empoloyees textron had a difficult time re-filling those positions. The majority of line workers the last few years are/were folks that lost their job in the poultry industry when the flocks had to be culled, most don't speak english.
5) Dirt should be the proffit center, its the side of the industry that has been experienceing growth these last several years.>>
<<As somone who worked with AC before, and during textron, They are ignorant and arrogant, absolutly refused to listen to anyone who knew the industry, their dealers, or their customers. There is not 1 single aspect of the business they didn't make worse, or more difficult.
1) The dealer situation was caused by textron, they canceled/forced out hundreds of dealers to ensure that tracker wouldn't have competition.
2) Build to order doesn't work very well, textron has done that already with AC.
3)The catalyst development was underway when textron took over. They got rid of the staff working on it, and shelved the project along with countless other projects.
a)The blast has almost 0 unique parts. Its a "parts bin special" and exists because AC had already developed a snow bike, and the engine for that was used in the blast (rest of the bike was sent to the crusher)
b)Under development with/for the catalyst was also a direct injection system for the new engine (not used because textron refused to fund development)
c)Under development with/for the catalyst was also a turbo system for the new engine (not used because textron refused to fund development) Gunnar Kleveland told a handfull of the top performing dealers they would be releaseing a turbo 600 years ago
d)Under development with/for the catalyst was also a new rear suspension design that used composite leaf style springs instead of metal springs/arm(s) (not used because textron refused to fund development) (and Brian Dick was fired)
e)Under development was a 4 stroke chassis, it being countless years behind was a major bone of contention between them and yamaha to the point yamaha was going to walk away more than once before they actually did. I've heard that in a meeting of hight ups in TRF Heidi McNary told yamaha if they don't like how long its taking they should design and build their own.
f)Under development were at least 2 new 4 stroke offerings (n/a and turbo) to be used in both dirt and snow sides of the business (I expected them to be seen at haydays last fall)
4) The major attraction for a buyer is the manufacturing facilities. The cost to replace/relocate would be a factor of 10 more that the sale price of the entire company. There may be enough room in TRF to move the production equipment from st cloud, but they built st cloud so they could have access to more/better skilled employees. Digi-key pays more than AC, and has significantly better benifits, after gutting the majority of empoloyees textron had a difficult time re-filling those positions. The majority of line workers the last few years are/were folks that lost their job in the poultry industry when the flocks had to be culled, most don't speak english.
5) Dirt should be the proffit center, its the side of the industry that has been experienceing growth these last several years.>>
pdiddy
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
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Lots to digest there!
Written by someone who was not in management or engineering, probably a supervisor or staff in production or back office.
Reading between the lines, it doesn't sound like the business was managed very well, whether the cause was internal or due to external influence from textron is unknown.
For someone to buy the factory they would have to live with the problems that AC faced there. One of the most valuable assets for any company is its employees, if you are located where you cannot attract good employees, that's a problem, likely one caused by misguided culture. The factory should have been moved a long time ago.The fact that Yamaha had to come to TRF to complain is a management problem. Having worked with Japanese companies very closely, they would definitely had some expectations based on what Yamaha NA was telling them and likely what they got from Cat directly. The Japanese are very blunt when it comes to business discussions and are big on trust. Either Yamaha Canada or Cat made some pretty fundamental mistakes around the 4 stroke development project (likely both), certainly communications had broken down.
Just observations based on what was shared.
Reading between the lines, it doesn't sound like the business was managed very well, whether the cause was internal or due to external influence from textron is unknown.
For someone to buy the factory they would have to live with the problems that AC faced there. One of the most valuable assets for any company is its employees, if you are located where you cannot attract good employees, that's a problem, likely one caused by misguided culture. The factory should have been moved a long time ago.The fact that Yamaha had to come to TRF to complain is a management problem. Having worked with Japanese companies very closely, they would definitely had some expectations based on what Yamaha NA was telling them and likely what they got from Cat directly. The Japanese are very blunt when it comes to business discussions and are big on trust. Either Yamaha Canada or Cat made some pretty fundamental mistakes around the 4 stroke development project (likely both), certainly communications had broken down.
Just observations based on what was shared.
STAIN
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Sad really.
Textron really screwed the pooch here. But why?
They screwed over an entire industry, causing not only one, but 2 manufactures to exit the sport.
The more I read this, the more irritated I get.
What could have been....
Textron really screwed the pooch here. But why?
They screwed over an entire industry, causing not only one, but 2 manufactures to exit the sport.
The more I read this, the more irritated I get.
What could have been....
Yeah - it really is interesting information. I really do think if fits what we observed of Yamaha over the last decade. When they first partnered with Cat they seemed like they were still very invested in the Snowmobile game. A lot of R&D went into the sidewinder in terms of the turbo motor, electronics, etc... That wasn't a simple off the parts shelf engine project. A lot went into purpose designing it for a snowmobile. Perhaps at that time they legitimately envisioned a long term partnership where AC would continue chassis development for both of them. Then when AC fell apart and couldnt keep up with chassis development Yamaha bailed out rather than start investing massive amounts of cash in to starting over with their own chassis development again. I think that makes a lot of sense. AC may have inadvertently caused them to bail out
Simplespeed
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People always have different opinions when they are viewed at different angles. Running any Profitable business today is a challenge that is getting harder and harder, let a lone a seasonal business that is forced to diversify into area’s they are not leaders in. All businesses make mistakes and if they are not kept small they can and many times will effect even the largest companies.! Arttic Cat lost a very large Legal Lawsuit with Ski-Doo on a suspension patent infringement just a couple of years ago that is now having direr implications is my opinion.. You have to have time and lots money to research and develop new products which in their case its obvious as stated in orginal post herein they are not doing.. No matter what the real reasons are its no good for this sport as it effects thousands.
Typically a lawsuit would be covered by their corporate insurance, being owned by textron, this likely would have been covered under a very large insurance umbrella, even if it were not, as a manufacturer you would carry insurance specifically for this issue.
RAMSOMAIR
TY 4 Stroke God
And now their insurance rates sky rocketed and they can't afford it haha!
2/3rds of management have zero or negative effect on the company… they were good bull sh*ters and climbed the ladder where they wreak havoc. I don’t think anyone is surprised it may end this with way Textron in charge.
