Proper Torque procedures RX and Apex Motors

[Ted Jannetty]

so what your saying ted is when i get my cpr turbo kit this week i should do a retourque before i try to run it at stock boost

Yes it is certainly the best time to do it since your more than halfway there.

Then later when you get used to the power you can add race fuel and turn up the boost with peace of mind.

Ted.

 

[Sapling]

So are you guys thowing out the angle part of the factory torque procedure?? On an Apex would I then torque to 14 lbs loosen 1/4 turn and retorque to 38 lbs with oil and stock studs? i am assuming the 10 lbs is for the (2) small bolts on one end?

18-20lbs front mount with shim.

I have been out hunting for a good torque plus angle gauge but if this is the case maybe I don't need one???

Thanks in advance.

Sap

 

[mulot30th]

If your compression is good and you don't use coolant why in the world would you loosen the Head and re-torque?????? leave it alone!!!!!!
If you are unsure lift the head make sure everything is good and put in all new gasket and do the proper torque procedure. Don't mess with halve way.

You are just asking for trouble.......

This is not a question of compression, when you add a turbo your increasing cylinder pressure which pushes up on the head and will lift it off the gasket and destroy the gasket or worse.

I have found that the stock studs relax after they have been heat cycled but are more than adequet on a stock unboosted engine and will last for the life of the engine.

If you go in the retorque or retension the head stud they will hold the head down even with big boost, I have been as high as 30 psi with no issues following my recommended proceedures.

Untouched turbo or supercharged RX/Apex engines will lift the head at about 12 psi boost and the gasket will fail there are plenty of guys on here who have done just that then had to go in and change the gasket follow my procedures and now they are running well with even more boost.

If you know something I don't, please share with us and be specific.

Your are right on the money!

I lifted both my apex and rx1 heads at right around 12-12.5# of boost on both ones. (both were stock untouched engines at that rime)

On the rx though, I detoned a few times before it finally blew head gasket.

 

[TT]

Ted or lackecr:

I'm using 3 OEM head gaskets together with OEM head studs on the engine to drop comp.

I have read this over and over again - but my English skills make me wonder if I have understod this right.

First of all I don't have moly lube to use for torque with head nuts (M10).


MCX manual says 20nm (aprox 15 lbs/ft), 35 nm (aprox. 25 lbs/ft) an finally 51 nm (aprox. 38 lbs/ft) on the M10 headbolts

Ted you say: use factory specs with a little "extra".

First run 20 nm (aprox 15 lbs/ft), second 51 nm (aprox. 38 lbs/ft) - then a third run where you loosen up 1/4 and retourqe with 51nm (38 ls/ft) again in one motion. Have I understod it right - I just want to make sure.

Second question - is 51nm (38 lbs/ft) enough with out moly lube. Or do I have to use more tourqe since I only have oil?

Thanks!

 

[Ted Jannetty]

Ted or lackecr:

I'm using 3 OEM head gaskets together with OEM head studs on the engine to drop comp.

I have read this over and over again - but my English skills make me wonder if I have understod this right.

First of all I don't have moly lube to use for torque with head nuts (M10).


MCX manual says 20nm (aprox 15 lbs/ft), 35 nm (aprox. 25 lbs/ft) an finally 51 nm (aprox. 38 lbs/ft) on the M10 headbolts

Ted you say: use factory specs with a little "extra".

First run 20 nm (aprox 15 lbs/ft), second 51 nm (aprox. 38 lbs/ft) - then a third run where you loosen up 1/4 and retourqe with 51nm (38 ls/ft) again in one motion. Have I understod it right - I just want to make sure.

Second question - is 51nm (38 lbs/ft) enough with out moly lube. Or do I have to use more tourqe since I only have oil?

Thanks!

With oil go 15 ft lb, then 25 then 38, go back and loosen 1/4 turn then back to 38 in one motion 1 stud at a time.

 

[TT]

Ted or lackecr:

I'm using 3 OEM head gaskets together with OEM head studs on the engine to drop comp.

I have read this over and over again - but my English skills make me wonder if I have understod this right.

First of all I don't have moly lube to use for torque with head nuts (M10).


MCX manual says 20nm (aprox 15 lbs/ft), 35 nm (aprox. 25 lbs/ft) an finally 51 nm (aprox. 38 lbs/ft) on the M10 headbolts

Ted you say: use factory specs with a little "extra".

First run 20 nm (aprox 15 lbs/ft), second 51 nm (aprox. 38 lbs/ft) - then a third run where you loosen up 1/4 and retourqe with 51nm (38 ls/ft) again in one motion. Have I understod it right - I just want to make sure.

Second question - is 51nm (38 lbs/ft) enough with out moly lube. Or do I have to use more tourqe since I only have oil?

Thanks!

With oil go 15 ft lb, then 25 then 38, go back and loosen 1/4 turn then back to 38 in one motion 1 stud at a time.

Thanks!

 

[TWIN TURBO]

TT
If your using OEM studs use the FACTORY torque specs and procedure. Yamaha builds 3,000,000, as in million, engine per year, I would think they probably have some kind of idea about what there doing by now.
If your using aftermarket studs follow stud manufactures torque recomendations.

 

[Ted Jannetty]

TT
If your using OEM studs use the FACTORY torque specs and procedure. Yamaha builds 3,000,000, as in million, engine per year, I would think they probably have some kind of idea about what there doing by now.
If your using aftermarket studs follow stud manufactures torque recomendations.

The factory torque procedure is for mass production, and the 2 front studs on every motor I did was looser than the rest and guess where the gasket blows.

They procdures are meant for stock engines not modified engines, I have been building race engines for 27 years with great success.

There are a lot of things we do differently than the manufacturers when modifying an engine. :ORC

I share my experiences, if you don't want to follow them, that is fine, it is your loss.

Ted.

 

[TWIN TURBO]

Ted,
Sorry we don't exactly see eye to eye but, I do agree with one thing you said which is Yamaha didn't build the engine for the EXTREME added loads were putting on them, and your right again when you say in the world of racing engines we don't always use the same procedures that the factory used when the engine was built. Changes have to be made for the added load. That being said, Did you ever hear the term "yield strength" or "Torque to Yield" Look them up sometime.
One thing that most certainly should be done in high boost applications is a change in clamp force on the cylinder head. More clamp force will NOT be attained by taking a OEM stud and tightening it more. Angle torque procedures are used to achieve max clamp force for a given stud made to given specs such as material, diameter, and length along with the fact we are clamping aluminum which when heated will expand and stretch the stud even further. This is one more reason to bring the engine to normal operating temps before boosting, you will then have proper clamp force.
Change the stud and follow the stud manufacturer's recomendations. They have engineers that have far more info than we do.

By the way I've been building engines for 40 years, I guess I win right?

 

[Ted Jannetty]

Ted,
Sorry we don't exactly see eye to eye but, I do agree with one thing you said which is Yamaha didn't build the engine for the EXTREME added loads were putting on them, and your right again when you say in the world of racing engines we don't always use the same procedures that the factory used when the engine was built. Changes have to be made for the added load. That being said, Did you ever hear the term "yield strength" or "Torque to Yield" Look them up sometime.
One thing that most certainly should be done in high boost applications is a change in clamp force on the cylinder head. More clamp force will NOT be attained by taking a OEM stud and tightening it more. Angle torque procedures are used to achieve max clamp force for a given stud made to given specs such as material, diameter, and length along with the fact we are clamping aluminum which when heated will expand and stretch the stud even further. This is one more reason to bring the engine to normal operating temps before boosting, you will then have proper clamp force.
Change the stud and follow the stud manufacturer's recomendations. They have engineers that have far more info than we do.

By the way I've been building engines for 40 years, I guess I win right?

Heard about it?
I studied it.
We are not tightening the stud more, we are just making sure thay are all the same.
38 ft. lb. is pretty standard across the industry for a 10 mm stud.

Angle torque procedures are designed to stretch the bolt/stud a specified distance and make production faster and easier.

Since your also an engine builder you should already know this.

The bottom line here is my Procedure works Period.

Aftermarket studs are far too strong, in order to get the proper stretch on an aftermarket stud you have to pull them to about 48 ft. lbs and this distorts the block, cylinders, head, and pulls the threads out of the block.

Not a desireable scenerio.

All we are doing here is making sure all the studs are tensioned properly, which they are not if you check.

 

[Sapling]

I wish I would have understood you better Ted when I torqued mine this summer!!!

Well should I pull it all apart and retorqe now (that would suck!!) or just wait till she lifts and then do it. I used 17 ft pds as a base plus the factory angles. I should have gone 15 25 38. I did notice that I got some of the gasket sealer spray color running through my coolant tank but I am sure at this point that it is just from the coolant ports in the head shim.

You guys have a quick procedure to get to the head with out stripping everything off??

Sap

Running 18 lbs boost.

 

[powder muncher]

Yo guys should trust Ted on this one, the angel torque deal is only to speed up production. It is not wrong, but not nearly as accurate as doing it several steps. I usually split it up 10 -20 -30 and finish after that just one more step, it is amazing how uneven the head clamps down to start with( with 2 or 3 Gaskets)
I have gone over the 20 foot pound twice just to get the head down even before going to higher torque numbers.

 

[Turbor]

just want to make sure i understood right, i read the thread several times but my english skills arent perfect lol. I have the arp studs but dont have acess to moly. i have read 54lbs and 45 lbs with oil in this thread witch ine is the right number? Also Ted states to use the factory procedure and then use is retorque procedure. Does this mean i still have to to torque the yamaha way with the angles? (sure hope not lol) i think ted means to use the yamaha torque sequence, am i right? thanks!

 

[mattymac]

good info, thanks ted! back off 1/4 turn then 38 lb ft in one motion for a retorque with stock hardware using the factory sequence. Gunna pull the trigger on a powderlites RB3 setup on my apex this summer cant wait!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ted Jannetty]

just want to make sure i understood right, i read the thread several times but my english skills arent perfect lol. I have the arp studs but dont have acess to moly. i have read 54lbs and 45 lbs with oil in this thread witch ine is the right number? Also Ted states to use the factory procedure and then use is retorque procedure. Does this mean i still have to to torque the yamaha way with the angles? (sure hope not lol) i think ted means to use the yamaha torque sequence, am i right? thanks!

You would only use the factory procedure on factory studs so your right, use factory SEQUENCE, OR ORDER, but torque in steps 10-20-30-43 with ARP Studs, the most important part is the final retorque, back off and retorque to 43, 1 at a time in order.

Again this is with ARP Studs ONLY

Ted.