stingray719
TY 4 Stroke God
Agreed but I will muddy the waters a bit. Some "extended mile" oils have slippery agents (for simplicity) and are very bad for motorcycle clutches or engine break in. Also some synthetics also have added slippery agents so instead of studying them to find out which ones have them I use conventional that I know for break in.
wavemaster
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And some dino oils add slip agents. Motorcycle oil (when bathing the clutches) is a totally different subject.
A rated viscosity is what it is. It is stamped on the jug of the final product not before adding any slipping agents. Most slip agents added is for extended life or heat range. In the case of piston/ring break-in and total break in (under 1000 miles) there is no extended life (at least not for me - lol).
If slippery oil was bad (being slippery is the oils whole purpose in life after all) they would have you do the initial without any oil, or specify a minimum/maximum viscosity. My only point is viscosity is viscosity, if it was measured right to begin with and it is the same, then it doesn't matter what is used.
A rated viscosity is what it is. It is stamped on the jug of the final product not before adding any slipping agents. Most slip agents added is for extended life or heat range. In the case of piston/ring break-in and total break in (under 1000 miles) there is no extended life (at least not for me - lol).
If slippery oil was bad (being slippery is the oils whole purpose in life after all) they would have you do the initial without any oil, or specify a minimum/maximum viscosity. My only point is viscosity is viscosity, if it was measured right to begin with and it is the same, then it doesn't matter what is used.
Last edited:
stingray719
TY 4 Stroke God
Try this oil in your next new motor http://www.schaefferoil.com/supreme-9000-engine-oil.html and let me know how break in goes
You reminded me to buy some for my Viper as soon as I am very sure its broke in. Micron Moly in it is about 2 microns thick, kind of like putting half a handful of 2 micron ball bearings in the oil. First time we tried this oil decades ago we ran 3 races pulled small block chevy down and the hone ridges you could still feel with your fingernails. Some slip agents are better than others.But yes viscosity is viscosity (at least when new)
wavemaster
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That looks like some sweet oil. I have a tube of molly that gets used during some assemblies, it is good stuff.
I have a friend that gets me 5gal buckets of mobil 1 oil, I keep two buckets of different weights on hand and I use it in everything. Not because it is the best or anything like that but because it is a deal for what it is. I change the oil so much it probably doesn't matter what I use.
I have a friend that gets me 5gal buckets of mobil 1 oil, I keep two buckets of different weights on hand and I use it in everything. Not because it is the best or anything like that but because it is a deal for what it is. I change the oil so much it probably doesn't matter what I use.
Here's a copy of an article by a well respected man Joe Minton. While the article was written for the HD crowd I believe the general principles apply here.
Article from Joe Minton (Synthetic Oil and Engine Break-in) from December
2002 American Rider Magazine
One of the more common questions from Harley owners is about the effects of
synthetic oil on engine break-in. Many Harley dealers, mechanics
and owners recommend against using synthetic oil during break-in. They
accept the myth
that an engine does not break-in properly when using synthetic oil.
When questioned about this belief, most reply that synthetic oil is too
slippery
and does not allow the moving metal parts to seat themselves against one
another.
This is not true. Further, one of the very best things one can do for a new
engine is to fill it with high-@ qual-ity synthetic oil before it runs for
the first time. I'll get to the reason for this shortly. First I'd like to
discuss what break @ in is to a modern engine vs. what it was when I was a
pup.
In terms of materials and precision, the best motorcycles ever made are
being built now. From top to bottom a contemporary Harley-Davidson
motorcycle is a much more durable and long-lived vehicle than the Triumphs,
Nortons or Harleys of 30 years ago. The materials are better-from the rubber
of the tires to the composition of the pistons and, most pertinent to this
article, so are the finishes of the various parts that work together inside
your con-temporary Harley motor.
Renowned motorcycle engineer and author Phil Irving, in one of his first
articles (1928, 1 believe) wrote about how to make a BSA 500cc flathead twin
last 3,000 miles between overhauls. A well cared for Evo-lution engine can
go 50 times that far (yes, really!).
Phil's 3,000-mile prediction reveals much about how it was then, and how
things have changed. A 1960s Triumph or BSA needed new valves, rings and
general top-end work about every 25,000 miles. Before any of you motorcycle
Anglophiles get too excited and start writing me about how you went 50K on
yours, consider that I worked in actual motorcycle shops where we did such
work and had to explain that a Triumph was a motorcycle and not a Ford.
Meanwhile, a typical Honda 305 Super Hawk (early 1960s) would reel off
50,000 miles between ring jobs, and this is part of the reason why it helped
knock the Triumphs off the marketplace.
You can see the point--3,000 miles in the '20s, 25,000 in the '60s and
150,000 in the present. There has been progress.
A half-century ago, motorcycle engines needed significant break-in time and
care if they were going to give relatively long and reliable service. This
fact of motorcycling life was mainly due to the roughness of the finishes on
the parts that had to work close together. Piston rings and cylinder walls,
for example, were not as precise or smooth as they now are. It is this
roughness that requires break-in.
Break-in is the process of wearing away the little bumps, protrusions and
excess bits of metal that stick through the oil film between moving parts.
If a sliver of metal on, say, a piston ring sticks out farther than the
thickness of the oil film between the ring and cylinder, it rubs directly on
the cylinder and one or both are damaged. The idea of breakin is to minimize
this damage as the offending parts wear themselves together enough to stay
inside the oil film. As long as there is a film of oil between moving parts,
there is no wear.
An example, which I believe came from one of Phil Irving's books, is the
Norwegian power generator armature which ran continuously for 65 years with
no wear between its bearings and shaft. The bearings were plain bearings,
the same in principle as those found in virtually all automotive engines.
The shaft and bearings never touched because a film of oil separated them.
Galling, piston seizure and high wear rates in general cannot occur until
the oil film between the parts fails. As long as oil separates the parts,
there is no wear, galling or seizure. If your Harley's new engine's moving
parts have their working surfaces damaged or destroyed during the break-in
period, that engine has suffered oil-film failure.
Engine lubricating oil is tenacious stuff. It is very difficult to rub it
off of the skirt of a piston or the wall of a cylinder. And, as long as
there is enough of it present to separate the moving parts, it prevents
direct contact and wear.
Oil stops working when it stops being oil. That happens when it gets too
hot and breaks down. When mismatched parts, for instance, that rough piston
ring and its mating cylinder wall, bear together hard enough they can raise
the temperature of the oil film high enough to destroy the oil. When there's
no oil there's no bearing surface and the parts rub directly together.
Destruction, local or general, quickly follows.
The two oil properties necessary to prevent this destruction are: film
strength and temperature stability. The higher the film strength, the harder
it is to rub off. The higher the temperature stability, the hotter the
offending parts must get before they can destroy the oil film and each
other.
High quality synthetic oils are superior to traditional petroleum oils in
both film strength and temperature stability. If your Harley's new engine
has a fit or finish problem, synthetic oil greatly reduces the probability
that those parts are damaged before they wear in to one another. This makes
synthetic oils superior break-in oils. They greatly reduce the chance of
engine damage during break-in. By the way, synthetic oils do not prevent or
greatly extend the break-in period. They do reduce or eliminate the damage
that might occur from mismatched parts. Those bits and pieces that protrude
still wear in but they do it more gently and locally with the extra
protection of
high quality synthetic lubrication.
Would you choose a petroleum oil that has 250,000 psi film strength and can
withstand 300 degrees Fahrenheit, or a synthetic oil with 503,000 psi and
stability to 500 degrees? The difference is clear, and the advantage is with
synthetic oils.
Article from Joe Minton (Synthetic Oil and Engine Break-in) from December
2002 American Rider Magazine
One of the more common questions from Harley owners is about the effects of
synthetic oil on engine break-in. Many Harley dealers, mechanics
and owners recommend against using synthetic oil during break-in. They
accept the myth
that an engine does not break-in properly when using synthetic oil.
When questioned about this belief, most reply that synthetic oil is too
slippery
and does not allow the moving metal parts to seat themselves against one
another.
This is not true. Further, one of the very best things one can do for a new
engine is to fill it with high-@ qual-ity synthetic oil before it runs for
the first time. I'll get to the reason for this shortly. First I'd like to
discuss what break @ in is to a modern engine vs. what it was when I was a
pup.
In terms of materials and precision, the best motorcycles ever made are
being built now. From top to bottom a contemporary Harley-Davidson
motorcycle is a much more durable and long-lived vehicle than the Triumphs,
Nortons or Harleys of 30 years ago. The materials are better-from the rubber
of the tires to the composition of the pistons and, most pertinent to this
article, so are the finishes of the various parts that work together inside
your con-temporary Harley motor.
Renowned motorcycle engineer and author Phil Irving, in one of his first
articles (1928, 1 believe) wrote about how to make a BSA 500cc flathead twin
last 3,000 miles between overhauls. A well cared for Evo-lution engine can
go 50 times that far (yes, really!).
Phil's 3,000-mile prediction reveals much about how it was then, and how
things have changed. A 1960s Triumph or BSA needed new valves, rings and
general top-end work about every 25,000 miles. Before any of you motorcycle
Anglophiles get too excited and start writing me about how you went 50K on
yours, consider that I worked in actual motorcycle shops where we did such
work and had to explain that a Triumph was a motorcycle and not a Ford.
Meanwhile, a typical Honda 305 Super Hawk (early 1960s) would reel off
50,000 miles between ring jobs, and this is part of the reason why it helped
knock the Triumphs off the marketplace.
You can see the point--3,000 miles in the '20s, 25,000 in the '60s and
150,000 in the present. There has been progress.
A half-century ago, motorcycle engines needed significant break-in time and
care if they were going to give relatively long and reliable service. This
fact of motorcycling life was mainly due to the roughness of the finishes on
the parts that had to work close together. Piston rings and cylinder walls,
for example, were not as precise or smooth as they now are. It is this
roughness that requires break-in.
Break-in is the process of wearing away the little bumps, protrusions and
excess bits of metal that stick through the oil film between moving parts.
If a sliver of metal on, say, a piston ring sticks out farther than the
thickness of the oil film between the ring and cylinder, it rubs directly on
the cylinder and one or both are damaged. The idea of breakin is to minimize
this damage as the offending parts wear themselves together enough to stay
inside the oil film. As long as there is a film of oil between moving parts,
there is no wear.
An example, which I believe came from one of Phil Irving's books, is the
Norwegian power generator armature which ran continuously for 65 years with
no wear between its bearings and shaft. The bearings were plain bearings,
the same in principle as those found in virtually all automotive engines.
The shaft and bearings never touched because a film of oil separated them.
Galling, piston seizure and high wear rates in general cannot occur until
the oil film between the parts fails. As long as oil separates the parts,
there is no wear, galling or seizure. If your Harley's new engine's moving
parts have their working surfaces damaged or destroyed during the break-in
period, that engine has suffered oil-film failure.
Engine lubricating oil is tenacious stuff. It is very difficult to rub it
off of the skirt of a piston or the wall of a cylinder. And, as long as
there is enough of it present to separate the moving parts, it prevents
direct contact and wear.
Oil stops working when it stops being oil. That happens when it gets too
hot and breaks down. When mismatched parts, for instance, that rough piston
ring and its mating cylinder wall, bear together hard enough they can raise
the temperature of the oil film high enough to destroy the oil. When there's
no oil there's no bearing surface and the parts rub directly together.
Destruction, local or general, quickly follows.
The two oil properties necessary to prevent this destruction are: film
strength and temperature stability. The higher the film strength, the harder
it is to rub off. The higher the temperature stability, the hotter the
offending parts must get before they can destroy the oil film and each
other.
High quality synthetic oils are superior to traditional petroleum oils in
both film strength and temperature stability. If your Harley's new engine
has a fit or finish problem, synthetic oil greatly reduces the probability
that those parts are damaged before they wear in to one another. This makes
synthetic oils superior break-in oils. They greatly reduce the chance of
engine damage during break-in. By the way, synthetic oils do not prevent or
greatly extend the break-in period. They do reduce or eliminate the damage
that might occur from mismatched parts. Those bits and pieces that protrude
still wear in but they do it more gently and locally with the extra
protection of
high quality synthetic lubrication.
Would you choose a petroleum oil that has 250,000 psi film strength and can
withstand 300 degrees Fahrenheit, or a synthetic oil with 503,000 psi and
stability to 500 degrees? The difference is clear, and the advantage is with
synthetic oils.
Nytro40th
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I break my sled in with what is in it and than I switch to full synthetic amsoil.
yamahaguy
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My 2015 XTX LE came with 0-W40 synthetic out of the box and its got a 5 year warranty so I am not to worried and I am pretty sure Yamaha is not worried I will break this motor either.
I run synthetic in everything. good stuff.
The following is a picture of my piston ring break in program... Its not very scientific but it sure is fun
I run synthetic in everything. good stuff.
The following is a picture of my piston ring break in program... Its not very scientific but it sure is fun
