TURBO, SUPERCHARGER....WHO OR WHICH ONE WOULD YOU BUY?

[BO4RE]

So for all intense purposes I can gather that where the big boys play, above say a true 250 hp, the turbo sled is the way to go. That being said for my own personal goals I believe a 250hp sled would be adequate. The entire reason for my intrugue was trying to decide on weather or not to purchase a Stage 1 s/c Apex with low miles. Hammer you had said you were getting beat by some higher cc 2 strokes until you got the setup on your apex right, what things in specific did you change and also if you could do it all over again would you still have chosen the apex?

 

[HAMMER]

 

[Bossman]

efiguy, I know a friend in Michigan that just got rid of a front mount turbo to go to a SC. You have to remember not all of us have mountains to go riding in. For a Trail/Lake sled the SC is perfect. Here in the Midwest were noise levels are a big issue I dont believe the Boonedocker system would be a real hit.If a guy can make 220-240 hp and trail ride on pump gas all day then stop out on the lake and do some racing against other TRAIL sleds I like my chances.

 

[KnappAttack]

Thats right, You are not going to make over 260 with pump gas. They all have their pros and cons. From what I see out there right now, the EFI's are not yet perfected to the point I'd like. The Simons front mount has been trouble free for me on carbed sleds. I have run faster than some of the higher HP units I have had in the past, due to the wide powerband of the turbo and the lack of a blowoff valve, which may be required in the mountains, but on the flatland it has proven to me to be a hindrance. Quiet is a must for me also, (Simons front mount quietier than stock). Rear mounts very loud! The rear mounts also suck in dirt from trail as filter is in back also. MPI blower, nice and quiet as stock. As for the EFI's, I don't like the piggy back controllers being used on the them right now. They will be required till you can crack the code with the factory ignition and program accordingly. With the carbed machines the sky is the limit. The choice is yours. Depends on the application your looking for. Mike Knapp#17

 

[TWIN TURBO]

Hammer,
What are you calling smoking hot intercooler temps and air intake charge temps, do you have a measured number. Just curious, would like to compare to what I had on the dyno.
By the way my post that stated 250/260 HP for SC's was not on pump gas, more like 100+ MOTOR octane. Would not dare try that on pump gas. More like 200/220 real Sea Level HP max safely on pump gas and don't get it too lean at that.

 

[HAMMER]

Didn't measure it but after a long WFO deep-powder pull up through the trees (150,000 compressor speed & 11.7-12.2 AFRs) the intercooler was hot enough to instantly vaporize snow... Figured it had to be above boiling point to turn a frozen solid into vapor (boiling point is 197.5°F @ 8000ft).

 

[BlueMax]

Didn't measure it but after a long WFO deep-powder pull up through the trees (150,000 compressor speed & 11.7-12.2 AFRs) the intercooler was hot enough to instantly vaporize snow... Figured it had to be above boiling point to turn a frozen solid into vapor (boiling point is 197.5°F @ 8000ft).

If I remember correctly, sublimation takes a great deal of energy but not temperature. 60 or 70 degree F air with less than 10% humidity (the humidity is the key) can cause snow to sublime.

 

[HAMMER]

True... Let me be more specific/correct then, it was transitioning through a liquid state first... After I stopped and removed the hood, the snowflakes landing on the intercooler were beading (liquid) then sizzling into vapor... The "survival genes" deep in my cranium told me "do not touch that---it's fuggen hot".........lol

Note that: I also got 102-104*F when I shot my intercooler with the IR temp gun...but...that was after doing single 0-100mph WOT runs down a hard pack trail in 19*F ambient temps... This is not the same as a slow ground speed, WOT, extreme load, hood covered with powder climbs... The extreme load condition is where the detonation monster will get you if you're not runing the proper octane fuel.

 

[BlueMax]

Thats right, You are not going to make over 260 with pump gas. They all have their pros and cons. From what I see out there right now, the EFI's are not yet perfected to the point I'd like. The Simons front mount has been trouble free for me on carbed sleds. I have run faster than some of the higher HP units I have had in the past, due to the wide powerband of the turbo and the lack of a blowoff valve, which may be required in the mountains, but on the flatland it has proven to me to be a hindrance. Quiet is a must for me also, (Simons front mount quietier than stock). Rear mounts very loud! The rear mounts also suck in dirt from trail as filter is in back also. MPI blower, nice and quiet as stock. As for the EFI's, I don't like the piggy back controllers being used on the them right now. They will be required till you can crack the code with the factory ignition and program accordingly. With the carbed machines the sky is the limit. The choice is yours. Depends on the application your looking for. Mike Knapp#17

Mike

You tested a Powder Lites turbo last year on an Attack and felt it was a very good setup. Your reference above said the fuel injected sleds were not there yet. Is this in reference to racing, trail riding or an overall statement? The add on controllers (Power Commander) are used in motorcycle racing as a common place tuning device. Do you think the Power Commander that is supposed to be out this fall will help in that department? Most Power Commanders allow fuel and ignition maps to be altered by RPM and throttle position. The current add on controllers do not have this ability.

 

[KnappAttack]

Carbed sleds ran perfect for me in the past, thats why I'm returning to a Rage for the turbo project. The EFI machines I had expierence with last year, (turbo and blower), all exitibited lean intake popping when whacking the throttle in a drag race application. If you added fuel to compensate it would be to rich when riding. MPI tells me they have that problem corrected for this year. Not sure about powderlites. Just know the carbed machines never had these problems. Carbs are more self compensating than people think! Not to mention I like being able to open the hood and get at everything. Really like the way the MPI blower installed on the EFI and the way it ran. No issues other than the pop at start of drag race. Also liked the HP of the Powderlites turbo, install very time consuming though, also issues with shipping over the border and the devaluation of the dollar in Canada now too! Making it pricey now. Can't say on the power comander not knowing a thing about it. Piggyback units out now scare me in the fact of wires breaking and moisture getting into unit. I like the keep it simple stupid method best! Mike Knapp#17

 

[BlueMax]

Carbed sleds ran perfect for me in the past, thats why I'm returning to a Rage for the turbo project. The EFI machines I had expierence with last year, (turbo and blower), all exitibited lean intake popping when whacking the throttle in a drag race application. If you added fuel to compensate it would be to rich when riding. MPI tells me they have that problem corrected for this year. Not sure about powderlites. Just know the carbed machines never had these problems. Carbs are more self compensating than people think! Not to mention I like being able to open the hood and get at everything. Really like the way the MPI blower installed on the EFI and the way it ran. No issues other than the pop at start of drag race. Also liked the HP of the Powderlites turbo, install very time consuming though, also issues with shipping over the border and the devaluation of the dollar in Canada now too! Making it pricey now. Can't say on the power comander not knowing a thing about it. Piggyback units out now scare me in the fact of wires breaking and moisture getting into unit. I like the keep it simple stupid method best! Mike Knapp#17

Thanks for taking the time to explain your comments.

 

[apexnfever]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread, and after reading it I am so brain melted that I feel like taking a big dump.

I will say this after reading this, for anyone looking at doing more hp, find someone to help who knows their stuff.

I can see how a supercharger can benefit a trail rider, boondocker, deep pow days, etc.

Turbo's for way up their is where I want to be days.

Well looks like I will need to set my 06 apex up with a supercharger for the trail days, and a 07 apex for king of the hill days.

well I already have the 06 that will go super, and the snowcheck 07 I will be picking up here in a couple days will soon have the nasty turbo'd crazy insane powered sled so many want to have. hehehe

So their, solve the problem buy to sleds, and have the best of two worlds.

I love debt.

 

[SPEED]

Sc

Well spoken Apexfever

This ain,t no practice run ; It,s life and live it hard, that,s my motto. Good Luck to you :ORC :ORC :ORC