xtx star suspension with broken limiter straps

[LeeKo]

I think you will have excessive slide wear at the front of the rail and I also think you will have the drawback of increased track approach angle.

 

[jp111]

It just makes me mad Yamaha designed a fault like this. I'm surprised we haven't seen more cases like this... [/quote]
ya, except I was up north near canuk ville with no service unless at the pub. read it too late. was exactly what I needed to know though.
Now home with it in my shop. shock is junk. thinking of going with 300 fox zero from schmitts.
I will say this. after working on 7000 miles now, when those straps broke, the machine was unbeleivable. the ski pressure was consistant and smooth. could go over anything with 1/2 throttle, both skis up, even on a down hill. I had never touched the straps before and didn't have wear issues either. the incredible preload this kit gives you, sucking the straps over an inch at the stock hole. it snapped those like butter, right in the middle. That is why they recommend you send shock in to shorten stroke and run super tight track. both of which I did not do. anyways. this new added inch of forward skid travel is exactly what I want, so I am setting up longer straps and reconfiguring rear to not hinge over. revalve all you want, nothing comes close to reconfiguring. this thing was an animal. I will make it do it or it goes in the dumpster. I can easily see why people drop the front end. I am going to go this way though. leaves alot of travel to use, high up and heavy it will be.loved it. I would never have known, so the damage doesn't hurt as bad. this is easily solvable, it's just that it had 20 pounds of ice so I couldn't mind melt with it and I had several beers in me too. first part I have had to buy yet.[/quote]

So what you are saying is that if you don't have the shock re valve by star failure is imminent? I would think their are more guys out their with this that have not had the shocks redone by star than just you and I. I would also think they would say its necessary to have them perform a re valve if you are going to install this kit. When I ordered the kit they made no mention to me over the phone about "needing" it done nor did they even recommend it. I am going to do the double strap method , and hope that holds.

 

[sgilbert]

I think you will have excessive slide wear at the front of the rail and I also think you will have the drawback of increased track approach angle.

I agree, we'll see, can always change it around. I have lots of wheels and had 6000 on the last slides with life left

 

[sgilbert]

So what you are saying is that if you don't have the shock re valve by star failure is imminent? I would think their are more guys out their with this that have not had the shocks redone by star than just you and I. I would also think they would say its necessary to have them perform a re valve if you are going to install this kit. When I ordered the kit they made no mention to me over the phone about "needing" it done nor did they even recommend it. I am going to do the double strap method , and hope that holds.[/quote]

while you are replacing your straps, let it down in the front as the shock permits. you will plainly see the rear shock can flip over. they did mention to me about shortening the shock internally to prevent this. my straps held for a few hundred miles until I finally started to pound the machine. so I would say that pounded right, its just a matter of time

 

[sgilbert]

heres a quote from robert who just emailed me back. very good description.

Rebound damping on the stock center shock is too fast. The sled works better with a lot of preload on the center shock. When doing some jumping and freeriding, the shock gets back too fast and is very hard on the limiters. You experienced this.
This is why we strongly recommend revalving at least the center shock.
When we revalve, we also put a spacer inside the shock so it can not extend more than with the limiters at the longest setting. If the limiters break again, the problem can no longer occur.
The shock will not be damaged when extended to it's limit. This is very strong.
Yes, it may be possible to make something to stop the rocker arm before it colapse. Some testing need to be done.

 

[jp111]

heres a quote from robert who just emailed me back. very good description.

Rebound damping on the stock center shock is too fast. The sled works better with a lot of preload on the center shock. When doing some jumping and freeriding, the shock gets back too fast and is very hard on the limiters. You experienced this.
This is why we strongly recommend revalving at least the center shock.
When we revalve, we also put a spacer inside the shock so it can not extend more than with the limiters at the longest setting. If the limiters break again, the problem can no longer occur.
The shock will not be damaged when extended to it's limit. This is very strong.
Yes, it may be possible to make something to stop the rocker arm before it colapse. Some testing need to be done.

I have had my re valve done by pioneer last year, I only have about 1k miles on them since it was done. I am a little confused that they tell you in the directions to put the center shock spring on almost full preload, wouldn't this make the shock push back harder and faster? If this kit increases the potential of damage without there re valve they should say that its necessary to have STAR re valve the shocks prior to installing the kit.

Oh well its in now and I am going to just double up the straps carry a spare set, and hope she holds together. If not I will have my wife's new vector along for a spare, on my trip to Maine.

 

[sgilbert]

heres where you loose me with revalving. Do people even know what they are looking to achive when getting revalved, or are they just jumping on the wagon and sending it out for a tech to do what they please??? this kit changes everything and any info from without the kit goes out the window. so what are these places doing to the shocks???

 

[Beenba]

heres a quote from robert who just emailed me back. very good description.

Rebound damping on the stock center shock is too fast. The sled works better with a lot of preload on the center shock. When doing some jumping and freeriding, the shock gets back too fast and is very hard on the limiters. You experienced this.
This is why we strongly recommend revalving at least the center shock.
When we revalve, we also put a spacer inside the shock so it can not extend more than with the limiters at the longest setting. If the limiters break again, the problem can no longer occur.
The shock will not be damaged when extended to it's limit. This is very strong.
Yes, it may be possible to make something to stop the rocker arm before it colapse. Some testing need to be done.

This is what I had figured out last year too. Once the straps are broke, the front of skid drops down and allows the rear to invert. Yamaha sucked bad here.

I REALLY wish I knew star installed a spacer. Robert never told me that. If he did, i would have sent it to him 100%. Oh well.

I put some thought into making up some sort of stop so the rear linkage cannot invert, but i just ended up doing what I thought was easist and making a steel wire tether at the front limiter straps. Here is a pic.

I might look back into the bump stop idea I had since we have no snow. I'll admit i would be more conformable with that type of solution. Maybe if I come up with something I will sell to some guys here as piece of mind. I know i would.

 

[sgilbert]

You cant put a stoper on the rear shock hinge, it would just bend something. the rear scissor needs to stop the rear action when it hits its stop. I am going with longer shock and pull rods. also could move hinge rearward or rear upper arm mount forward.
yamaha did not drop the ball. the hinge can not go over in stock form without bend shafts or something to cause it.

 

[jp111]

heres where you loose me with revalving. Do people even know what they are looking to achive when getting revalved, or are they just jumping on the wagon and sending it out for a tech to do what they please??? this kit changes everything and any info from without the kit goes out the window. so what are these places doing to the shocks???

I am sure places like Pioneer and Hygear have been in the business long enough to know what to do and what not to do when it comes to re doing shocks. If not they would not be in business very long! When I had mine done I did not know anything about the Star kit , all I was implying was that if this kit NEEDS the spacer and star to perform the re valve then that should be stated when ordering. Kind of like Skinz concept front end that states you MUST have shocks that have spherical bearings in order to run their front end. I'm not trying to start an argument, but when I sell something to a customer at my dealership if something else is required to make it work I better advise them of that and sell it to them or I have upset customers. Especially if that additional component or service can cause damage without it.

 

[sgilbert]

first of all, there is little to no feedback on this kit, probably only very few out there. they are probably just realizing the failure. and they did tell me, I was the moron that didn't take the warning. I would be hard pressed to believe pioneer or any other place has any experience with the kit. not knocking them, had my apex gt done, which is a wet dream for a smooth ride, but the homework and technology was out there for years before I did it. just standard proceedure by then. I didn't have to know anything about the apex, just read what was out there. done deal. dont take offense, if we dont work on this its going to be very slow progress

 

[Beenba]

yamaha did not drop the ball. the hinge can not go over in stock form without bend shafts or something to cause it.

I disagree. In stock form the same thing happened to me last year. When I started testing for it once I had my sled fixed back up, (with the skid stock, no STAR installed), once the limiters break and you take the weight off the track (with the skid installed in the sled) the rear can hinge over free as butter. So basically if the straps break and you catch some air and land on just the back of the skid, it will and can invert very easily. The star kit doesn't correct this issue as we have also just found out. So yes, IMO yamaha did drop the ball. Like I have said before...$20 limiter strap failure ends up costing over $600. This is pretty much a single fault condition and not good at all.

Your longer shock and tie bars sound like a great idea and fix though, I will like to see it once your done! Pics

 

[sgilbert]

I did get this all together. 18 open 12 closed rear shock and lengthened the pull rods 1/2". used 1 1/2 straps with relocated lower cross bar at 1 1/2 more extension than oem. allowing the front of the skid to come down as the shock lets it now. pretty sure this is what I was looking for, but besides test running on our 2" frozen white concrete haven't been out. going north next weekend. the rear shock I got is way over dampened, so if this works, going to try to get a 1" over fox zero. the more I mess with this, the more I realize, the front end needs to be lowered or the front of the rail raised. take your pic, then you can tame it. took pics, but forgot the cord up north.

 

[sgilbert]

have 2000 miles on the kit now. 7800 total, most of it like I stole it. way better trail machine. rides way smoother, transfers way better and solved the harsh front end by being able to tranfer weight. and all that with a $50 rear shock, so much for expensive shock work

 

[raptor700r06]

what was the exact sled you used to lookup the shock