Yamaha R&D PLEASE READ and DELIVER for 2013.

Sled Dog said:
AKrider said:
Sled Dog said:
For a mountain sled I somewhat agree with you. For the guys who like to cruise on trails or open fields (they probably buy more sleds) the weight is a mute subject and in fact is better for stabilty and comfort. Durability and quality does equal more weight and for the trail riders durabiltiy and reliabilty means either walking, being towed or not. When I am going through ungroomed fields and hitting drifts I am glad my sled is heavier to take the pounding and keep the sled more stable instead of launching. The weight between comparitive 4S HP sleds is very minimal as well. If Yamaha wants to compete in the mountain sled it is going to have to go to 2S for now until they figure out how to get the weight down for the mountain riders.
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Weight is never a moot subject. Yamaha would have better sales in the midwest if their sleds weren't so fricking heavy. For off-road use light is right. The Nytro sure as heck isn't more stable because it is heavy, in fact it is unstable because it is top heavy, among other issues.

Why can't a 4 stroke be the same weight as a 2-stroke? I would have never believed it with dirt bikes in the 80's yet here we are. The other three OEM sleds are built light. Yamaha's are not and their chassis aren't even that durable. In fact they have the weakest suspension components and chassis of any of the OEM's. A Ski-doo XP chassis looks absolutely fragile. But, they hold up. I didn't believe they would but now that my buddy is racing the Iron Dog on an XP and I've had the opportunity to learn about the sled my opinion has changed. The last time Yamaha had a competitive chassis was with the trailing arm Vmax.

The Nytro and Phazer show some really innovative thinking when it comes to sled construction but they could be so much better. If Yamaha copied what people are doing to lose weight from the factory we'd see some real improvement.
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Does weight make a real difference to trail riders who ride groomed trails? Does weight make a real difference to a sledder who rides open feilds and ungroomed trails at a safe speed? Does weight make a difference to someone who uses their sled for work? The answer to these questions is NO. In fact the weight for the work sleds is wanted and needed. Weakest suspension components come on your reaching now the only thing that ever failed on my suspensions was a RA cable and wheel bearings after 6500 miles. I believe you seem to think that only mountain riders with mountain sleds are considered sledders and that should be Yamaha's main concern building a mountain sled. That said with the Big Iron Shootout its still Yamaha that rules that part of the mountains with boosted sleds. Come to think of it Yamaha's boosted sleds rule at drag races and top end speed as well.
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Im from central South Dakota. In 2000 when anybody bought a new sled it was a 121. Today the same guys have no less than 153. Trailer after trailer going down interstate 90 comming from the east are mountain sleds. There is a HUGE segment being left out by Yamaha. If you think weight isnt a factor your in the 1%.
 
Ruckus said:
It's not that groomed trail riding is not "real" snowmobiling, it's that groomed trail riders represent the largest segment of the market. It's unfortunate that mountain/backcountry riders have to ride an overweight top heavy design if they want to continue to ride the brand. Ask a VK professional owner what happens if you get one stuck. That's why I have a good old VK 540. It's technologically inferior but a hell of a lot better in soft snow or crosshilling or breaking trail.
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A small portion of the market will not rule the industry or a company for that matter. For mountain sleds I believe Yamaha has to go back to 2S and for ditchbanging as well. If I was making a ditchbanger for instance the way you describe riding to someone else is enormous and why would I get into making a sled that is going to get abused by some when is enough enough for warranty reasons alone that would scare any manufacturer. Yamaha for its 4S needs to build a clutch that can take 12000 rpms so it can use the engine to its best capabilities and get rid of some weight by getting rid of the gear reducer. That along with a muffler exhaust manifold combo that exits into the tunnels front as well to get rid of some weight. These are just two ideas where if Yamaha wanted to lose some weight would be a couple good places to start in my opinion.
 
cacsrx1 said:
Sled Dog said:
AKrider said:
Sled Dog said:
For a mountain sled I somewhat agree with you. For the guys who like to cruise on trails or open fields (they probably buy more sleds) the weight is a mute subject and in fact is better for stabilty and comfort. Durability and quality does equal more weight and for the trail riders durabiltiy and reliabilty means either walking, being towed or not. When I am going through ungroomed fields and hitting drifts I am glad my sled is heavier to take the pounding and keep the sled more stable instead of launching. The weight between comparitive 4S HP sleds is very minimal as well. If Yamaha wants to compete in the mountain sled it is going to have to go to 2S for now until they figure out how to get the weight down for the mountain riders.
Click to expand...

Weight is never a moot subject. Yamaha would have better sales in the midwest if their sleds weren't so fricking heavy. For off-road use light is right. The Nytro sure as heck isn't more stable because it is heavy, in fact it is unstable because it is top heavy, among other issues.

Why can't a 4 stroke be the same weight as a 2-stroke? I would have never believed it with dirt bikes in the 80's yet here we are. The other three OEM sleds are built light. Yamaha's are not and their chassis aren't even that durable. In fact they have the weakest suspension components and chassis of any of the OEM's. A Ski-doo XP chassis looks absolutely fragile. But, they hold up. I didn't believe they would but now that my buddy is racing the Iron Dog on an XP and I've had the opportunity to learn about the sled my opinion has changed. The last time Yamaha had a competitive chassis was with the trailing arm Vmax.

The Nytro and Phazer show some really innovative thinking when it comes to sled construction but they could be so much better. If Yamaha copied what people are doing to lose weight from the factory we'd see some real improvement.
Click to expand...

Does weight make a real difference to trail riders who ride groomed trails? Does weight make a real difference to a sledder who rides open feilds and ungroomed trails at a safe speed? Does weight make a difference to someone who uses their sled for work? The answer to these questions is NO. In fact the weight for the work sleds is wanted and needed. Weakest suspension components come on your reaching now the only thing that ever failed on my suspensions was a RA cable and wheel bearings after 6500 miles. I believe you seem to think that only mountain riders with mountain sleds are considered sledders and that should be Yamaha's main concern building a mountain sled. That said with the Big Iron Shootout its still Yamaha that rules that part of the mountains with boosted sleds. Come to think of it Yamaha's boosted sleds rule at drag races and top end speed as well.
Click to expand...

Im from central South Dakota. In 2000 when anybody bought a new sled it was a 121. Today the same guys have no less than 153. Trailer after trailer going down interstate 90 comming from the east are mountain sleds. There is a HUGE segment being left out by Yamaha. If you think weight isnt a factor your in the 1%.
Click to expand...

Your missing my point of course it matters to mountain sleds I am saying it is not that big a deal to a trail rider and there is way more trail riders in the East than in the West riding mountains. The trail riders demand quality, reliability and comfort and that most times means added weight even in the bigger tanks the mountain guys want.
 
Sled Dog said:
Does weight make a real difference to trail riders who ride groomed trails? Does weight make a real difference to a sledder who rides open feilds and ungroomed trails at a safe speed? Does weight make a difference to someone who uses their sled for work? The answer to these questions is NO. In fact the weight for the work sleds is wanted and needed. Weakest suspension components come on your reaching now the only thing that ever failed on my suspensions was a RA cable and wheel bearings after 6500 miles. I believe you seem to think that only mountain riders with mountain sleds are considered sledders and that should be Yamaha's main concern building a mountain sled. That said with the Big Iron Shootout its still Yamaha that rules that part of the mountains with boosted sleds. Come to think of it Yamaha's boosted sleds rule at drag races and top end speed as well.
Click to expand...

If given a choice between two sleds, one heavy and one light, both sleds having equal engine reliability, how many people are going to pick the heavy sled? Yamaha has the groomed trail market covered. They are also #4 in sales. It is apparent this sales strategy is not working. The majority of riders would rather ride a lighter weight sled that doesn't even offer equal engine reliability.

How as a moderator have you not read about all the:
1. Broken W arms in the Pro-Action skid.
2. Broken center linkage in the Phazer.
3. Broken front arms in the Pro-Active rear suspension.
4. Bent spindles, a-arms and subframes in the Nytro.

The Mono Shock rear skid is not durable enough for aggressive riding. This is why in '07 Yamaha went with the Pro-Active CK for the Apex RTX. I've seen the results of running a Mono Shock rear skid in XC racing. It collapsed and pushed the front of the rails through the track. So for me "reaching", I disagree.

It would be nice if Yamaha tried addressing the wants and needs of riders who do more than 300 mile days on groomed trails. Until they do, they will remain firmly at #4 in sales.
 
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Yamaha needs to come out with a "new" factory turbo mountain sled!! I have over $26k invested in my 06 turbo Vector and it is a "reliable" weapon to say the least ....my bones are getting weaker and I cannot toss it around in the steep and deep like I used to a few years back....

I thought long and hard before buying the new HCR1100 turbo but had only two options to consider....the CAT or the Nytro MTX.... by the time I turbo'ed the nytro it would have cost me way to much $$$$ for the second time and the wife would have divorced me when she found all the receipts.

Come on Yamaha!!!! Are you listening? Power steering is for old farts and I still have 8 good years of mountain / back country riding left in me. You have the engine...time to lighten it up and pump up the factory HP to 200+...my new CAT....aka john deere tractor needs a spankin!
 
AKrider said:
Sled Dog said:
Does weight make a real difference to trail riders who ride groomed trails? Does weight make a real difference to a sledder who rides open feilds and ungroomed trails at a safe speed? Does weight make a difference to someone who uses their sled for work? The answer to these questions is NO. In fact the weight for the work sleds is wanted and needed. Weakest suspension components come on your reaching now the only thing that ever failed on my suspensions was a RA cable and wheel bearings after 6500 miles. I believe you seem to think that only mountain riders with mountain sleds are considered sledders and that should be Yamaha's main concern building a mountain sled. That said with the Big Iron Shootout its still Yamaha that rules that part of the mountains with boosted sleds. Come to think of it Yamaha's boosted sleds rule at drag races and top end speed as well.
Click to expand...

If given a choice between two sleds, one heavy and one light, both sleds having equal engine reliability, how many people are going to pick the heavy sled? Yamaha has the groomed trail market covered. They are also #4 in sales. It is apparent this sales strategy is not working. The majority of riders would rather ride a lighter weight sled that doesn't even offer equal engine reliability.

How as a moderator have you not read about all the:
1. Broken W arms in the Pro-Action skid.
2. Broken center linkage in the Phazer.
3. Broken front arms in the Pro-Active rear suspension.
4. Bent spindles, a-arms and subframes in the Nytro.

The Mono Shock rear skid is not durable enough for aggressive riding. This is why in '07 Yamaha went with the Pro-Active CK for the Apex RTX. I've seen the results of running a Mono Shock rear skid in XC racing. It collapsed and pushed the front of the rails through the track. So for me "reaching", I disagree.

It would be nice if Yamaha tried addressing the wants and needs of riders who do more than 300 mile days on groomed trails. Until they do, they will remain firmly at #4 in sales.
Click to expand...

Engine reliabiltiy would only go to the 4S we all the know the 2S cant hold a candle to it in reliability. That would be the heavier sled and that would be my choice and a lot of others as well. The smell of a two stroke gives me a headache a lot of people would also agree with me there and buy the non smelling 4S. The 4S also meets and exceeds enviromental emissions a lot of people who consider themselves green would also agree with me and buy the heavier 4S. The 4S is heavier no doubt about it but its a reliable engine especially one made by Yamaha. Do you really want me to name all the failings on CAT, DOO and POL? Too many to mention and not worth my time to even find out. You as a learned snowmobiler already know that any of the other three have parts failing on all of them. I have seen them I have picked them up and I have towed them. Not one of my Yamaha sleds have yet to be towed and I own three Yami's. I have one Polaris and guess which one blew the engine steering gate plastic shims, brake pads, two dimmer switches and two wheel bearings and was towed home you guessed it by a 4S yami. Show me the stats stating that Yamaha is firmly in #4 position in sales. The monoshock was never meant for aggressive riding so there you have it you abuse something hard enough it will break I dont care who's skid it is. Finally as a moderator seeing as you pointed that out I am usually watching members who are stirring up crap and have to step in which does hamper the amount reading I would like to do on this site.
 
OK, i can see this thread has gone AWALL and was a waste of time.

I figured that when it got moved from where i had originaly posted it.
(the Nytro mountian forum)
There was a REASON WHY I POSTED IT THERE.
TO BE READ BY MOUNTIAN RIDER'S and NOT FLATLANDER'S, THAT NO NOTHING OF MOUNTIAN RIDING.

This was not to be a bebate on what a FLATLANDER feels, but a MESSAGE TO YAMAHA from US MOUNTIAN guy's.

I hope Yamaha atleast reads the original post and get's part of the message, i'm done.
 
I wonder what is going to happen when Yamaha delivers the new 2T direct injection engine in a 450 lb sled? There's going to be a lot of disappointed Yamaha owners who currently enjoy the weight that quality adds.
 
I'm not sure we'll ever see it on account of emissions requirements, but I think everyone on TY would love to have a Yammi 2S DI alternative motor across the line, but especially in some of the Mountain sleds. But bottom line: I think Yamaha has committed itself to 4 Stroke technology and won't ever offer a 2 Stroke sled engine again. It's possible, but doubtful.

Emissions and warranty costs are the reasons why well never see another Yamaha 2 Stroke sled engine if you're wondering.
 
And Lund, you need to chill. I didn't realize you now owned your threads and could dictate who posted in them. You put a thread out there, be prepared for it to be moved, tinkered with, responded to, deleted, or rewarded. Once theyre posted they're not yours anymore, lol!!!!
 
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