snowbeast
TY 4 Stroke God
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2003
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- 5,498
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- E waterboro,maine
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- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2015 apex xtx traded for a 2017 sidewinder L-tx-le
- yes
- YOUTUBE
- yes
Do all you ditch bangers still like your 07 rtx,and why?? I cant figure out how they can call this a ditch banger,at least not if you are anywhere over 175 lbs i am at 260# and it just behoofes me to think they call this a ditch banger,it run thru the studders bad,as it rattles your teeth at 40 mph in the small stiff 6-10 inches,and it only goes half way good thru the 1-2 footers if you crank up the torsion springs to high,and pull your butt off the seat,and hope you dont hit that sucker bump that will send your spine back to the doctors. I was hoping for something better than the mono i left off with,but in its stock form it just comes up a little short compared to my old 06 apex, for now at least,so i am hoping for some feedback from guys that feel the way i do,so we can find out how to make this the ditch rocket it ought to be. Oh and please dont critisize me on my feelings of my sled,if you love your and have no info that will help me find the hot set up,than dont post,i am only looking for set up tips that can help a guy my weight,that drives hard thru the worst trails anyone has on a sunday warm afternoon! So my set up,is 10" of CB's carbide on stock skis,fox set at 60lbs rear front spring set at 4.75 inches on the coil spring,transfer rods set to full max,and rear torsion springs at middle,and no bump stops in for now,as i have had them in middle hole,i get near zero ski lift or transfer at all,it does not pop over any bumps,WHY???
olcountry
Veteran
You hit the nail on the head early in your post, (unless rider is 175lbs) If the Rev MXZ 600X is a YZ 250 our sled is a 600 thumper all sorts of balls but a pig at that. Mine was set up from the dealer for me, I weigh 205 thats what I told them, works Great if you like pounds under you but then again I am used to out running F7's and Revs on a ZRT 800 which actually felt lighter than my RTX without the caddy ride, I would suggest contacting Cory Davidson (cross country racer for yamaha) and asking him what he would do if he weighed 260lbs, serious I bet he could Help.
Good Luck
Good Luck
f7 addict
Newbie
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2007
- Messages
- 22
they are a joke as far as a "rough trail sled". i voiced my opinion on this issue and got hammered for it. mine bottoms out over average size bumps. 150 miles and the rear shocks were sacked. front shocks kick azz. i can ride any sled hard and make it work pretty well but the rear suspension has to be alot stiffer than this. some nice people on this site have done some improvments to theirs and they may chime in. my 07 aint cuttin it. it feels as though i'm going to break something. your rite about the waiting for the big one. been there done that. my back was hammered and ever since i stand for the most part during any unfamiliar terrain.i would try an fx but anything under 150 hp is entirely out of the question. i bet the fx will be soft as well. the video of the yammi guy pushing down on the rear looked way to soft. motor is killer. best of luck to you. i ride mine with the rear shocks as stiff as possible. springs on third block. 
snowbeast
TY 4 Stroke God
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2003
- Messages
- 5,498
- Age
- 69
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- E waterboro,maine
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2015 apex xtx traded for a 2017 sidewinder L-tx-le
- yes
- YOUTUBE
- yes
Yea the only thing about the blocks on high,when you hit the big one you still get pounded,cause the rear torsions dont get the job done,but while ya got them sprung up so high,you get pounded in the little chop,do you feel it has any transfer,i have mine set to max transfer,and it barley hooks up,if i did that to my mono apex i had,it would stand on its snowflap.f7 addict said:they are a joke as far as a "rough trail sled". i voiced my opinion on this issue and got hammered for it. mine bottoms out over average size bumps. 150 miles and the rear shocks were sacked. front shocks kick azz. i can ride any sled hard and make it work pretty well but the rear suspension has to be alot stiffer than this. some nice people on this site have done some improvments to theirs and they may chime in. my 07 aint cuttin it. it feels as though i'm going to break something. your rite about the waiting for the big one. been there done that. my back was hammered and ever since i stand for the most part during any unfamiliar terrain.i would try an fx but anything under 150 hp is entirely out of the question. i bet the fx will be soft as well. the video of the yammi guy pushing down on the rear looked way to soft. motor is killer. best of luck to you. i ride mine with the rear shocks as stiff as possible. springs on third block.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
As you probably read I wanted the rear bumper to sag (from full suspension extension) by about 3" when I sit on it, ready to ride (including ice). Stock it was sagging about 8" after about 300 miles with the torsion springs cranked up to high (after the ice built up). Just like you guys I was bottoming out and getting tons of kickback from the anti-bottomers.
In order to control kick-back and bottoming out I ran the shock on full stiff and the ride was very rough.
I paid $300 US for the "heavy duty" torsion springs from Yamaha only to find the sled actually sat lower and the ride didn't improve. My dealer spoke to Yamaha and was told the heavy duty springs are "supposed" to make the sled sit a lower. Based on this we figure this suspension is set up only for under 200 lb riders and the "heavy duty" springs are just to provide a slightly stiffer ride, not any more weight carrying capacity.
I spent hours researching spring options, talking to Hygear, Pioneer Performance, looking at Arctic spring specifications, Skidoo springs, etc. Nothing looks like it will work (provide more ride height - I found quite a few springs that would fit though). Neither Ross (Hygear) nor Bruce (Pioneer) had any spring options that will work (Ross said they are working with an aftermarket spring manufacturer and should have some "taller" torsion springs in a couple of months).
So at that point I was in the same boat as you.
Bruce at Pioneer suggested I consider reworking the springs so I ended up taking the stock springs to an automotive restoration shop that has experience with re-arching torsion springs and had my springs "tweaked" to increase the ride height by about 5 inches.
Talk about a huge improvement! I still find I need the springs set on the middle position, but the back end now does sag by the 3" I wanted when I sit on it. Everything from the ride quality (compliance), antibottoming ability, and weight transfer greatly improved. Its still no monoshock soft ride, but it handles the bumps much better and I don't need the shock cranked up all the way.
After putting another 1000 miles on it I'm starting to believe the shocks need to be re-valved before I'll be 100% happy, but its not bad now. I find I keep tweaking the main shock between 1 and 4 clicks from full hard. At 1 or 2 it is very good handling big bumps, but the stutter bump performance at lower speeds is far harsher than it needs to be. At 4 its a good compromise for most conditions, but I still want more high speed damping for when I ride it hard and the ride at lower speeds is still fairly harsh.
As far as weight transfer I now have mine set up to lift the skis about 1" off the ground with decent traction on a hard launch (with the sagging stock springs I couldn't get them to lift at all). Sometimes if the hookup is too good or if I'm riding in deeper, wind swept (dense) snow it hooks up so well it stands right up on the snowflap. The weight transfer adjusters are 1 mark away from min.
The best thing about this suspension is so far it isn't showing any signs of stress (paint flaking at welds, etc.). Once I get it fully dialed in (more high speed compression damping, less low speed compression damping, and more higher speed rebound damping to eliminate the kick back) I believe this is going to be an excellent suspension (for me).
I don't understand why Yamaha doesn't offer more torsion spring options - especially ones that provide more height for heavier loads (even the stock ones should provide more ride height). I also don't know why they located the L, M, H adjuster for the torsion springs so far away from the center of the spring (this makes it so the difference between the 3 settings isn't very much compared to other torsion spring suspensions).
BTW, I have the anti-bottoms on the soft position. After the past few days I think my preference would be to have them in the medium position, but the shock can't currently handle the increase in spring stiffness (not enough higher speed rebound damping) and I end up with too much kick-back.
I think we should let our complaints be heard by Yamaha. Talk to your dealer and/or Yamaha and let them know that taller (and possibly stiffer) springs are needed (assuming you find the ride height too low). Hopefully Yamaha will have more options available for next season.
f7 addict, I suspect you'll find your rear shock isn't actually sacked. I thought the same thing when my sled was riding low. The way this suspension works, the main shock speed or shock effect reduces once the suspension lower past a certain point (which is also why there is so much kickback off the anti-bottomers). This makes the shocks feel like they are shot and the back end bounces all over the place. When I raised my back end to where it should be my shocks started providing tons of damping again and they don't seem to fade (too badly).
In order to control kick-back and bottoming out I ran the shock on full stiff and the ride was very rough.
I paid $300 US for the "heavy duty" torsion springs from Yamaha only to find the sled actually sat lower and the ride didn't improve. My dealer spoke to Yamaha and was told the heavy duty springs are "supposed" to make the sled sit a lower. Based on this we figure this suspension is set up only for under 200 lb riders and the "heavy duty" springs are just to provide a slightly stiffer ride, not any more weight carrying capacity.
I spent hours researching spring options, talking to Hygear, Pioneer Performance, looking at Arctic spring specifications, Skidoo springs, etc. Nothing looks like it will work (provide more ride height - I found quite a few springs that would fit though). Neither Ross (Hygear) nor Bruce (Pioneer) had any spring options that will work (Ross said they are working with an aftermarket spring manufacturer and should have some "taller" torsion springs in a couple of months).
So at that point I was in the same boat as you.
Bruce at Pioneer suggested I consider reworking the springs so I ended up taking the stock springs to an automotive restoration shop that has experience with re-arching torsion springs and had my springs "tweaked" to increase the ride height by about 5 inches.
Talk about a huge improvement! I still find I need the springs set on the middle position, but the back end now does sag by the 3" I wanted when I sit on it. Everything from the ride quality (compliance), antibottoming ability, and weight transfer greatly improved. Its still no monoshock soft ride, but it handles the bumps much better and I don't need the shock cranked up all the way.
After putting another 1000 miles on it I'm starting to believe the shocks need to be re-valved before I'll be 100% happy, but its not bad now. I find I keep tweaking the main shock between 1 and 4 clicks from full hard. At 1 or 2 it is very good handling big bumps, but the stutter bump performance at lower speeds is far harsher than it needs to be. At 4 its a good compromise for most conditions, but I still want more high speed damping for when I ride it hard and the ride at lower speeds is still fairly harsh.
As far as weight transfer I now have mine set up to lift the skis about 1" off the ground with decent traction on a hard launch (with the sagging stock springs I couldn't get them to lift at all). Sometimes if the hookup is too good or if I'm riding in deeper, wind swept (dense) snow it hooks up so well it stands right up on the snowflap. The weight transfer adjusters are 1 mark away from min.
The best thing about this suspension is so far it isn't showing any signs of stress (paint flaking at welds, etc.). Once I get it fully dialed in (more high speed compression damping, less low speed compression damping, and more higher speed rebound damping to eliminate the kick back) I believe this is going to be an excellent suspension (for me).
I don't understand why Yamaha doesn't offer more torsion spring options - especially ones that provide more height for heavier loads (even the stock ones should provide more ride height). I also don't know why they located the L, M, H adjuster for the torsion springs so far away from the center of the spring (this makes it so the difference between the 3 settings isn't very much compared to other torsion spring suspensions).
BTW, I have the anti-bottoms on the soft position. After the past few days I think my preference would be to have them in the medium position, but the shock can't currently handle the increase in spring stiffness (not enough higher speed rebound damping) and I end up with too much kick-back.
I think we should let our complaints be heard by Yamaha. Talk to your dealer and/or Yamaha and let them know that taller (and possibly stiffer) springs are needed (assuming you find the ride height too low). Hopefully Yamaha will have more options available for next season.
f7 addict, I suspect you'll find your rear shock isn't actually sacked. I thought the same thing when my sled was riding low. The way this suspension works, the main shock speed or shock effect reduces once the suspension lower past a certain point (which is also why there is so much kickback off the anti-bottomers). This makes the shocks feel like they are shot and the back end bounces all over the place. When I raised my back end to where it should be my shocks started providing tons of damping again and they don't seem to fade (too badly).
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
mnmsnowbeast said:
Something I discovered when experimenting with the geometry of this suspension (skid on the bench, springs removed):
When the suspension gets compressed a lot, close to bottoming out, the shock slows down and almost stops compressing. Also, near the top there is another area where the main shock slows down.
When looking at the torsion spring effective rate (I'll call this the "suspension rate"), it is the softest fully extended and stiffest close to bottoming out.
This means if the sled is sitting low or very high, the shock acts like a much softer shock. In the middle of suspension travel on the other hand, the shock acts like the stiffer shock that it is. BTW, most sled suspensions are like this and that is why for most sleds its so important to get the right ride height.
Anyway, what this does is if you lower the sled right down, the shock appears softer and the suspension soaks up the small stutter bumps well - but at the same time it bottoms out very easily and experiences kick back if you install the anti-bottomers. If you crank up the rear springs to H, you (I was at least) are sitting near the middle of suspension travel. This makes the ride much harsher on stutter bumper, even though the actual suspension rate (how much the sled sinks with a change in weight on the sled - as opposed to spring rate) gets softer and softer the taller the sled sits.
So - if you get the sled to sit tall, you get both into the softer shock range and the minimum suspension rate (softest effective spring rate) which greatly improves both the stutter bump performance and the anti-bottoming performance. I still think the shock damping rates could be improved but I found raising the back end so its sits 3" compressed (at the bumper) ready to ride, including ice, made a huge improvement to everything.
I tried raising it up more (roughly 2" of compression at the bumper) and the ride actually became very good at soaking up stutter bumps and at the same time the anti-bottoming was even better. The problem I found is the sled became tippy and also you could feel the suspension topping out over rises and through stutter bumps. Maybe something like 2.5" would be ideal combined with slightly lowering the front to compensate for the taller center of gravity (tippyness).
IMO, Yamaha should come out with a ride height spec for this suspension just like they did with the monoshock (for it they used measured compression at the shock) and offer springs so you can get it there.
One thing that I don't know will be a problem, but should warn you about. I was having problems with track ratcheting and when I measured track tension I found it loosens off when the suspension rides higher, especially a taller ride height combined with more weight transfer. At the same time as re-arching my springs I installed skidoo extrovert/introvert drivers so I wouldn't have to worry about ratcheting and rapid hyfax wear. If you're riding in good conditions I suspect you will still be able to find a reasonable compromise for the track tension (with taller torsion springs), but if you're in marginal conditions you might have rapid hyfax wear at the curve in the rails when the track is tight enough not to ratchet (I wore through a pair of hyfax at the rail curve before I raised the back end).
Maybe you guys could try this: Bring a tape measure with you out for a ride. When you're out on the trails (ice built up) and obviously in full riding gear, stop the sled and lift up on the back bumper until the suspension is fully extended (but the track is still fully on the ground). Measure the height of the rear bumper (or use the piece of black plastic under the exhaust cover). Now get on the sled, bounce on it a little and measure the height again. Subtract one from the other. Post your results. This is what I consider sit in and my sled now has 3". This is also pretty much where Yamaha measures their suspension travel (for the claimed 11.5" of travel - I don't seem to get 11.5" when I measure it though...maybe they measure it at the snowflap and force the front suspension not to collapse at all when weight is applied - seems more like 10" before it bottoms to me...). BTW, I was measuring 6-8" of sit in (depending on amount of ice build up) with the stock springs on high.
AIRWOLF
Guest
what are you running for psi in your floats
f7 addict
Newbie
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2007
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- 22
mine hooks up like a monster. that's one of the reasons i'm considering keeping this thing. it kicks azz in drag races. i put the springs in the mid position and keep everything else the same. not much trouble with stock sleds around my area. i have 192 megabites. as far as the blocks on high, i have no problem with major kick back. in the beginning i did. now i have 1200 miles on the sled and maybe the springs are worn out. i'm coming off an 06 800 rev x package and i stand alot. high speed,large bumps have proven to be problematic with this rear skid. was your mono any better at not bottoming? i was thinking maybe going 08 mono with a heavy spring.mnmsnowbeast said:Yea the only thing about the blocks on high,when you hit the big one you still get pounded,cause the rear torsions dont get the job done,but while ya got them sprung up so high,you get pounded in the little chop,do you feel it has any transfer,i have mine set to max transfer,and it barley hooks up,if i did that to my mono apex i had,it would stand on its snowflap.f7 addict said:they are a joke as far as a "rough trail sled". i voiced my opinion on this issue and got hammered for it. mine bottoms out over average size bumps. 150 miles and the rear shocks were sacked. front shocks kick azz. i can ride any sled hard and make it work pretty well but the rear suspension has to be alot stiffer than this. some nice people on this site have done some improvments to theirs and they may chime in. my 07 aint cuttin it. it feels as though i'm going to break something. your rite about the waiting for the big one. been there done that. my back was hammered and ever since i stand for the most part during any unfamiliar terrain.i would try an fx but anything under 150 hp is entirely out of the question. i bet the fx will be soft as well. the video of the yammi guy pushing down on the rear looked way to soft. motor is killer. best of luck to you. i ride mine with the rear shocks as stiff as possible. springs on third block.
number1kyster
TY 4 Stroke God
I run my blocks on medium. On high it is too stiff for me at 190 lbs. I am very pleased with my 07 RTX!
07 RTX
I'm really suprised you guys are having so many problems with the rear skids on the RTX? I go 260 w/ gear have my springs set on the softest setting on the blocks and rear shock set on the softest setting on the clicker. Transfer blocks are turned down as far as I can get them. I friggin LOVE the rear suspension over the Mono skid, I think it's performing exactly as I expected it to over the mono skid. I felt the Mono was way to soft for aggressive high speed riding. I will agree that the skid does give it up on the big high speed sucker bumps/holes. But I've come to know that and get my arse off the seat when I see them coming and all is usually good.
With the transfer rods backed all the way down the thing is a wheelie monster on any kind of roller, I can get the think almost verticle at times just hammering it over nice size rollers! I really like the trail performance of the sled and just wish I could get some better top end out of it w/o having to drop another $5 - 700 hundo on clutching etc...
I have my floats set at 55psi and love how the front end lands when coming down from being in the air!!!
Sorry to hear you're not happy with the way yours are riding and sorry I don't have some secret set ups for you, but mine seems to be working very well for 95% of the riding I've been doing.
XCR5
I'm really suprised you guys are having so many problems with the rear skids on the RTX? I go 260 w/ gear have my springs set on the softest setting on the blocks and rear shock set on the softest setting on the clicker. Transfer blocks are turned down as far as I can get them. I friggin LOVE the rear suspension over the Mono skid, I think it's performing exactly as I expected it to over the mono skid. I felt the Mono was way to soft for aggressive high speed riding. I will agree that the skid does give it up on the big high speed sucker bumps/holes. But I've come to know that and get my arse off the seat when I see them coming and all is usually good.
With the transfer rods backed all the way down the thing is a wheelie monster on any kind of roller, I can get the think almost verticle at times just hammering it over nice size rollers! I really like the trail performance of the sled and just wish I could get some better top end out of it w/o having to drop another $5 - 700 hundo on clutching etc...
I have my floats set at 55psi and love how the front end lands when coming down from being in the air!!!
Sorry to hear you're not happy with the way yours are riding and sorry I don't have some secret set ups for you, but mine seems to be working very well for 95% of the riding I've been doing.
XCR5
supercat
Extreme
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2006
- Messages
- 83
One thing to remember is if you have your adjustment at full weight transfer your two rear shocks are not coupling until later in the travel. If you want better antibottoming, you need the rear shock to couple with the front shock sooner. I admit I run at full transfer as I like the wheelie effect from corner to corner. Try lessening the weight transfer so your shocks couple sooner and see if you like it.
supercat
Extreme
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2006
- Messages
- 83
Rex,
How do they redo the springs? Do they use heat, cold bend or what? I assume when at the top of the added height that the springs are a little more forgiving?
How do they redo the springs? Do they use heat, cold bend or what? I assume when at the top of the added height that the springs are a little more forgiving?
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
supercat said:
They did it cold, but I have been told that some prefer to do it heated.
I have to admit though I really don't like the idea of tweaking the springs. The right way to do it would be to install new springs built with more preload. Unfortunately they are not available.
Yes the springs (and shock) are more forgiving near the top of suspension travel. For the springs you can just look at the way the front of the torsion spring slides along the top of the idler wheel. The longer the distance from the center of the spring to where it touches the suspension the less force required to move it. As the suspension compresses, the spring slides along the wheel and this shortens the lever arm, making it so more force is required to compress it the further the suspension compresses.
Its like having a longer lever arm when trying to move the springs, the longer the lever, the easier they are to move, the shorter the lever, the harder they are to move. The effective spring rate is pretty much proportional to the distance between the center of the spring and where the end of it touches the wheel mount so there is a fairly big difference in effective spring rate from the top of the travel to the bottom of travel.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
Re: 07 RTX
I too find this very strange. With gear I am a little below 240 and if I adjust everything to the soft/low settings like you have and am riding in cold conditions (lots of ice build up) my sled rode very low - so much that the snow flap was actually dragging or very close to dragging. I do have about 5 lbs in the trunk which is probably similar to adding 7-8 lbs to me.
Either your riding style is much less aggressive or you're sled somehow ended up with taller springs from the factory. I'm running my shocks at 60-65 psi, but I can't see that making much difference. I was planning to drop the pressure down to 55 for my next ride since I find the front end absolutely never bottoms out (doesn't even seem close) and I'd like a little less inside ski lift.
Can you take the measurement I spoke about a couple of posts up and post how much suspension sag you have when you're riding?
100% stock, with the springs on high, on the coldest nights (probably 50+ lb of ice build up) I was getting 8" of sag. This only gave me something like 2-3 inches of suspension travel before bottoming out. If you're 20 lbs heavier and our sleds are the same, I don't understand how your sled isn't at least riding very low.
As far as performance, I find my sled is an absolute rocket. My only concern is the rpms are a little too high but I love the way it snaps to 10,500, even at low speeds, the instance the throttle is hit. I've still never held it to see what the top end is in ideal conditions, but I've had the speedometer reading 124 mph on hard packed snow and its still accelerating. Even on deeper, looser trails its always pulled up to 110 mph on the speedometer and got there fast. Its fast enough for me that's for sure.
Now that I have the ride height sorted out I am very, very impressed with this sled in every way. As I mentioned the only thing I would consider is revalving the shocks and this is really to make the ride more compliant at lower riding speeds or on smooth trails without sacraficing big bump performance.
It almost sounds like we're riding totally different model sleds...
xcr5 said:
I too find this very strange. With gear I am a little below 240 and if I adjust everything to the soft/low settings like you have and am riding in cold conditions (lots of ice build up) my sled rode very low - so much that the snow flap was actually dragging or very close to dragging. I do have about 5 lbs in the trunk which is probably similar to adding 7-8 lbs to me.
Either your riding style is much less aggressive or you're sled somehow ended up with taller springs from the factory. I'm running my shocks at 60-65 psi, but I can't see that making much difference. I was planning to drop the pressure down to 55 for my next ride since I find the front end absolutely never bottoms out (doesn't even seem close) and I'd like a little less inside ski lift.
Can you take the measurement I spoke about a couple of posts up and post how much suspension sag you have when you're riding?
100% stock, with the springs on high, on the coldest nights (probably 50+ lb of ice build up) I was getting 8" of sag. This only gave me something like 2-3 inches of suspension travel before bottoming out. If you're 20 lbs heavier and our sleds are the same, I don't understand how your sled isn't at least riding very low.
As far as performance, I find my sled is an absolute rocket. My only concern is the rpms are a little too high but I love the way it snaps to 10,500, even at low speeds, the instance the throttle is hit. I've still never held it to see what the top end is in ideal conditions, but I've had the speedometer reading 124 mph on hard packed snow and its still accelerating. Even on deeper, looser trails its always pulled up to 110 mph on the speedometer and got there fast. Its fast enough for me that's for sure.
Now that I have the ride height sorted out I am very, very impressed with this sled in every way. As I mentioned the only thing I would consider is revalving the shocks and this is really to make the ride more compliant at lower riding speeds or on smooth trails without sacraficing big bump performance.
It almost sounds like we're riding totally different model sleds...
Blue Oval
Expert
Same here as I have found , I think, the sweet spot on my RTX. I go around 210 dry and have found the control nuts on max, 8 clicks from full hard and the torsion on high for the rear is perfect. I have not touched the front skid spring at all. I have my floats set @ 50 and the arms are level. I'm still awaiting the 13mm as Bruce tells me they are still being tooled! I'm going to pull the strap up one hole B-4 the weekend. Track has ratcheted a few too many times but I think I got it now. I too stand when I see the really big holes coming up but I'm more aware of my 1.450's hitting the shield than anything. I would be curious to see the sag on mine that Rex is talking about, haven't measured it yet. Doug
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