09 Apex

[**sj**]

sounds good in theory...but i'd be their goal is to get rid of the gear reduction due to weight and costs...besides isnt this a long stroke motor designed for low rpms....which most likely would lose efficiency rather rapidly at high rpms?>

 

[SledFreak]

That's the reason why they don't spin it that high or over 13,000 is because it's all hp at that high of a RPM range and not about torque, but Yamaha is a smart company, they will get it to work.

 

[QCRider]

Gear Reduction must go. That's the reason the 120 motor was developed in the first place. Now it has been bumped in displacement from 975cc up to 1050 ish and fuel injected to get it to 138ish horsepower. If ever there was a motor CRYING for a factory turbo or supercharger, this is IT. No gear reduction, and 180 hp easy without stressing the engine at all on regular pump gas. All of this is well within the realm of possibility with the triple. I'd hate to lose that sweet sounding 4 holer, but this would be one SWEET combination in the DB2 chassis or the new one that replaces it.

This would cut production costs somewhat because they could use basically the same engine for the Nytro, Vector and Apex except that the Apex motor would be boosted.

 

[BOUNTYHUNTER]

I think you will see an all new 09 Apex that will knock our socks off. Big time rider forward ergos, lighter weight and more power. I think the 09 Apex is going to be killer.
And.......Discuss...BBY

....ABSOLUTELY


I see big changes in 09 Especially with the Mtn Sleds, I expect to see Yamaha Finially incorprate the Power Steering unit from the Grizzly into the sleds............I'm really looking forward to the 09 line up.

 

[sledheadgeorge]

What do you guys think the pwer will be with a SC and pump fuel?

 

[snowbeast]

Wow 174 HP in the Nytro chassis would be cost effective due to same basic motor parts and chassis!!!!!!!!!!!

That would be a sled I would buy in a heartbeat!!!!!!!!!!

Count me in!!!!

Yup me too,mrance111 sweet,my dealer told me i would be very happy,but if it is 174hp i will be smiling all winter!!!!!

 

[Tork]

Gear Reduction must go. That's the reason the 120 motor was developed in the first place. Now it has been bumped in displacement from 975cc up to 1050 ish and fuel injected to get it to 138ish horsepower. If ever there was a motor CRYING for a factory turbo or supercharger, this is IT . No gear reduction, and 180 hp easy without stressing the engine at all on regular pump gas. All of this is well within the realm of possibility with the triple. I'd hate to lose that sweet sounding 4 holer, but this would be one SWEET combination in the DB2 chassis or the new one that replaces it.

This would cut production costs somewhat because they could use basically the same engine for the Nytro, Vector and Apex except that the Apex motor would be boosted.

You think gear reduction is bad? It is the most simple, lighest weight and least costly way to get 4 strokes to produce 2 stroke power. High Revs are key (along with displacement) either that or you completely dont understand Formula one racing or high performance motorcycles.
I still see no indication of Yamaha being a forced induction motor producer. As I recall they have produced only one boosted engine, 1982 vintage motorcycle and they have left boosting to aftermarket ever since.
Racing rules prohibited gear reduction in the race bred Nytro.

 

[**sj**]

actually I agree....I think they made a mistake though...if they spun the gear unit from reduction to INCREASE with the flat torque curve they'd have something...with less horsepower and torque they'd have a broader tuning range and could run lighter weights and smoke higher powered machines..

the only reason 2 strokes dont spin higher is the narrow(er) torque band

 

[QCRider]

You think gear reduction is bad? It is the most simple, lighest weight and least costly way to get 4 strokes to produce 2 stroke power. High Revs are key (along with displacement) either that or you completely dont understand Formula one racing or high performance motorcycles.

Yes, I think gear reduction is bad. It is a necessary evil in the Yamaha approach to high horsepower 4 strokes. Forced induction and lower RPMs are a better approach for Snowmobiles because of the limitations of the Centrifugal clutch. F1 cars and Motorcycles don't have to deal with that.

Last time I checked there wasn't a formula one car that put out horsepower anywhere near close to a Top Fuel Dragster.

I still see no indication of Yamaha being a forced induction motor producer. As I recall they have produced only one boosted engine, 1982 vintage motorcycle and they have left boosting to aftermarket ever since.
Racing rules prohibited gear reduction in the race bred Nytro.

Here I agree with you. Though until very recently they were not using 4 strokes in sleds. I don't think that they dare to spin up the 4 cylinder motor much higher in the Apex because of the heavy load a motor has on it in a sled as compared to a bike. I supposed they could get another couple thousand RPMs out of it and milk another 10 - 15 hp, I'm just not sure if it would be as reliable as it is now.

The other thing that sucks about gear reduction is that it costs fuel mileage. This and running at higher RPMs is why the Apex gets lower mileage than the RX-1 (the gear reduction is more on the Apex) and much worse than the Vector which has nearly the same displacement and gets MUCH better fuel mileage.

So yeah, if I had a choice between a 4 cylinder motor with gear reduction that made 170-180hp and a 3 cylinder supercharged motor making the same horsepower spinning at 8500 RPMs and weighing 15 - 20 pounds less and getting better fuel mileage, I would definitley go with choice number 2.

 

[QCRider]

Also, they have apparenly come within 12 hp in the Nytro spinning 3,000 less RPMs. I think the 4 cylinder motor will be gone soon. It is the only thing left in the Apex weight wise that could be replaced with something lighter and better. This motor was used in sleds because they had it. It's basically the Yamaha equivalent of the small block chevy. They can do better and they will. With or without forced induction.

 

[Tork]

Yes, I think gear reduction is bad. It is a necessary evil in the Yamaha approach to high horsepower 4 strokes. Forced induction and lower RPMs are a better approach for Snowmobiles because of the limitations of the Centrifugal clutch. F1 cars and Motorcycles don't have to deal with that.

Helllllllloooooooo, what the heck are you talking about???
Motorcycles and F1 cars don't have gear reduction???
They have entire gear boxes. And you are right, the 2 simple straight cut gears have been such a nightmare of unreliability and you never ever hear of a boosted motor blowing up. :ORC

Last time I checked there wasn't a formula one car that put out horsepower anywhere near close to a Top Fuel Dragster.

Reality check again. Top fuel dragsters are one trick pony's. And the motors last what? 4 seconds under full load before they need to be rebuilt?
F1 cars do everything fantastically well, accelerate, brake, change direction and with G forces that most people could not tolerate for long. Plus they stay together for hours and hundreds of miles.

I'll gladly take the gear reduction thank you! Just thinking a factory boosted motor is a pop off valved pipe dream that you will continue to torture yourself over.

 

[Viper_Dave]

I feel I should share some information that seems to have been missed here. The ONLY reason Yamaha chose to add the gear reduction was CLUTCHING!! Centrigual clutches lose efficency rapidly at higher RPM's. The gear ratio was chosen to keep the standard Yamaha primary in ot's sweet zone. This is reliable informationrelated to me by a dealer friend, immediately after being at Tech school for 03.

Dave

 

[Tork]

Yes, moving more air thru the engine by spinning it faster translates to more power. fly weight variable pully clutching likes to live at about a 9K max
2 simple, relatively light, very reliable gears bring the 2 together.

and had that not been done, Yamaha 4 strokes would not be the roaring success they are today.

and in a way, the new Nytro does have gear reduction if you think about it.

 

[QCRider]

Yes, moving more air thru the engine by spinning it faster translates to more power. fly weight variable pully clutching likes to live at about a 9K max
2 simple, relatively light, very reliable gears bring the 2 together.

and had that not been done, Yamaha 4 strokes would not be the roaring success they are today.

and in a way, the new Nytro does have gear reduction if you think about it.

You are absolutely correct about it being simple and reliable, and making Yamaha 4 strokes a big success, but it is time to move on from it and Yamaha knows this too. It has a place in the small engines like the Phazer where they are trying to keep displacement to a minimum, so RPMs are jacked way up. However, the approach they are taking with the triple is what should be done for high performance. Now if they just boost it with 4 pounds they can have a better performing, better fuel mileage engine in a lighter/smaller package than the 4 cylinder. That sled would compete with ANY hyper sled from the other three OEMs, and be very reliable too.

Ok, you got me here... I'm thinking about it and not coming up with the gear reduction. If you're talking about clutching all sleds have that.

 

[QCRider]

Motorcycles and F1 cars don't have gear reduction???

I didn't say that they don't have gear reduction. I said that they are not exposed to the same type of stress that a snowmobile engine is.

By the way, you wouldn't want an F1 motor in your sled any more than a dragster motor. It might last a couple of hours longer, but not enough to matter. They run them for 2 races now, and that was a BIG deal to F1 when they changed to that.