13MM sway bar, harsher ride in uneven trails or not??

[Irv]

I agree with Nate, you've got to try it. I love mine and it's fits how/ where I typically ride really well. But others seem to hate it. Also, if you commit to setting your Apex up for corner to corner riding, you need to commit all the way. Set up is everything, and this bigger and more rigid bar will require you to lower your front end, suck up your limiter strap a tad, and turn out your transfer rod some. The exact set up will be dependent on you. Need to take the time and dial it in for you. But in the end, the sled will ride and perform better in the twisties and you'll negate inside ski lift.

Mine is the Vector Super Sled, not much weight difference but I do know it is suppose to handle slighty better than the Apex already due to the lower centre of gravity?

I have my front shocks set up now to the lowest level they will go(minimal pressure on springs) but I have never played with my limiter strap.

When you say turn out your transfer rod, you obviously mean to make it longer, any suggested lengths?
It is currently set at Catman's suggested length, 1-1/4/-1/8th I think?

 

[Super Sled]

Here is what I do, but please keep in mind I am constantly "tweeking" things in the rear skid, usually dialing in the preload and compression in my rear Ohlins shock.... But here it is:

1) Front end. I have floats so it's easy, but I keep the psi low, so my a arms are level with the ground.

2) Limiter strap: I keep mine second hole from tightest. I've tried middle hole and it's too much to keep the front end planted for me. I do give up some top end speed when I do this, I realize that, but I like it better.

3) Transfer rod: I crank mine waaaay out, so I'm about 1/8" from the longest you should ever set the transfer rod. I realize this too hurts my top end and take off traction, but this setting helps a lot to keep the skis planted on the trail, and no inside ski lift. Try it, and you'll like it in the twisties.

4) Rear shock: I typically set it for a lot of preload. I'm not a heavy guy and I'm prob at least half way as tight as I can make the spring. Little rougher ride, but less cushy and keeps things planted.

I also then typically keep my compression set medium-ish to high and my rebound set on high for quick response to stutter bumps and large, continuous bumps. Gotta let the shock get back into form quickly.

Please keep in mind this is from my memory. Bjowett has had my Ohlins shock all summer so it's not in front of me. But I've heard it's now in the mail back to me, which makes my psyched.... ;-)

 

[Daranello]

Just bought a 2006 Attak for my wife it has a 13m sway bar shes only 130lbs....should i be going back to 11m?

 

[JROCK]

Just bought a 2006 Attak for my wife it has a 13m sway bar shes only 130lbs....should i be going back to 11m?

If shes not an aggressive rider she may like the stock 11mm bar better. It will feel softer in the front end allowing it to be more independent. Put the 13mm on your sled

 

[Irv]

Here is what I do, but please keep in mind I am constantly "tweeking" things in the rear skid, usually dialing in the preload and compression in my rear Ohlins shock.... But here it is:

1) Front end. I have floats so it's easy, but I keep the psi low, so my a arms are level with the ground.

2) Limiter strap: I keep mine second hole from tightest. I've tried middle hole and it's too much to keep the front end planted for me. I do give up some top end speed when I do this, I realize that, but I like it better.

3) Transfer rod: I crank mine waaaay out, so I'm about 1/8" from the longest you should ever set the transfer rod. I realize this too hurts my top end and take off traction, but this setting helps a lot to keep the skis planted on the trail, and no inside ski lift. Try it, and you'll like it in the twisties.

4) Rear shock: I typically set it for a lot of preload. I'm not a heavy guy and I'm prob at least half way as tight as I can make the spring. Little rougher ride, but less cushy and keeps things planted.

I also then typically keep my compression set medium-ish to high and my rebound set on high for quick response to stutter bumps and large, continuous bumps. Gotta let the shock get back into form quickly.

Please keep in mind this is from my memory. Bjowett has had my Ohlins shock all summer so it's not in front of me. But I've heard it's now in the mail back to me, which makes my psyched.... ;-)

Thanks SS, I will keep this advice in my favourites and do some tweeking this coming winter.

Appreciate it

 

[nate007]

Just bought a 2006 Attak for my wife it has a 13m sway bar shes only 130lbs....should i be going back to 11m?

Sorry for the impending long read, but I think there are some that may have a different idea of how the sway bar effects ride?

Again, it's all in the set up. First thing to remember, all the sway bar does is control body roll. It doesn't necessarilly increase how rough the sled rides unless the rest of your suspension is too rough. Play with the compression and rebound settings of your front shocks first.

1. If you soften up the compression settings, it will do two things. Make the ride smoother overall, and two, it will help absorb some of the jolt when one ski is tossed into the air by a bump, etc. The whole principal is simply to keep the sled as level as possible.

2. Dont have too much pre-load on your front shocks. Unless you are a very aggressive rider who spends alot of time in the air, the sled will have the best ride when the spings (air or coil) are set just enough to keep the sled at the desired ride height. If you put someone on it who is much lighter than the sled was designed for, you may benifit by swapping to a softer coil, or less air pressure. Even with an air spring shock, dont just run with what pressure you have landed on for your ride height. Even small tweaks of 4-6 psi can make a huge difference. I personally don't agree with the instructions of adjusting an air spring sled shock with the sled off the ground, but I know why they do it. it would take too longh to explain, but I set my shocks with my sled on a clean smooth concrete surface and my skis on its dollys. I keep my dollys in perfect condition with the caster wheels greased, and my suspension well lubricated. Small adjustments can actually be seen in the ride height, and even when making small changes on the trails I at least turn the skis back and forth to eliminate binding. Air pressure is air pressure, and in a steady state, pressure changes are constant regardless if the machine is in the air or not. You'd only notice a spike in psi when the suspension compresses over bumps and jumps, but it's static pressure is alwas the same.

3. Don't have too much weight transfer on the front end. This is a tricky subject, and could go on and on, but I think there are too many people who mis-understand how this is supposed to work. I ride aggressively on rough, twisty trails. My Apex has the EVOL X's on it, and I run my A-arms level to the ground, I have just enough pre-load on my front end so that while sitting normally under hard acceleration, my skis are BARELY off the ground. I've found this keeps the steering lighter under steady speed riding, doesnt allow too much "dive", or weight to be planted when braking (which causes a "push" condition in the corners).

4. GREASE, GREASE, GREASE! No suspension is going to funtion properly when it is dirty, or has dried grease in the busings, no grease, or worse yet, rust! Modern sled suspension is far more intricate in its operation than older sleds, and for them to work properly, the have to be able to move! If you're finding yourself struggling with adjustments and can't seem to notice many changes, take the time, pull things apart and use a high-quality marine grade grease. Marine greases repel water better than others, and will cling to surfaces without washing off or getting worn out with the forces of operation.

I spend my days working on hot rods, muscle cars, 4x4's etc, and deal alot with aftermarket suspensions and their technologies. I spend countless hours tweaking very small things sometimes and can usually find hidden potential in most suspensions with minor adjustments and maintainence!
Most every theory of operation is the same for any vehicle, and understanding the principles involved can save a ton of headaches, extra money spent, not to mention aggrivation that's bad enough to make you want to sell something!
When we set up an air suspension we start with a few basics. The weight of the vehicle, driver, all fluids full and a few extra pounds of "baggage" to simulate the weight of the vehicle in operation. Depending on it's intended use, we chose the air springs accordingly.
For an auto-cross or performance street car, or muscle car, most people want them to have a sporty and responsive ride (like the agressive trail rider). We typically chose a spring that at it's median air pressure will support approximately the vehicle weight, or slightly LESS by 3-5%. What this does is to allow us to increase pressure for agressive driving without raising ride height, and when normal street driving conditions are needed, air can be released to soften the ride without lowering the car. Pressure can vary on most by 5-7% with out effecting ride height, but ride quality changes dramatically.
For a big cruiser car, we use an oversize air spring so we are on the lower end of it's weight capacity, so that with minimal pressure the vehicle is at ride height and has a very soft, smooth ride.

What all this long-winded BS means is that don't blame the bar for how your sled rides, because it's only one small part of how the suspension works in unison. If you think the bar is causing your sled to buck and bounce around, look at the rest of the package first, soften up the spring rates and compression adjustments, and I'm confident you'll find that simple adjustments will make you think you bought a new sled!

 

[Nick1945]

Thanks Nate, great helpful info

 

[Terminator]

Just bought a 2006 Attak for my wife it has a 13m sway bar shes only 130lbs....should i be going back to 11m?

Sorry for the impending long read, but I think there are some that may have a different idea of how the sway bar effects ride?

Again, it's all in the set up. First thing to remember, all the sway bar does is control body roll. It doesn't necessarilly increase how rough the sled rides unless the rest of your suspension is too rough. Play with the compression and rebound settings of your front shocks first.

1. If you soften up the compression settings, it will do two things. Make the ride smoother overall, and two, it will help absorb some of the jolt when one ski is tossed into the air by a bump, etc. The whole principal is simply to keep the sled as level as possible.

2. Dont have too much pre-load on your front shocks. Unless you are a very aggressive rider who spends alot of time in the air, the sled will have the best ride when the spings (air or coil) are set just enough to keep the sled at the desired ride height. If you put someone on it who is much lighter than the sled was designed for, you may benifit by swapping to a softer coil, or less air pressure. Even with an air spring shock, dont just run with what pressure you have landed on for your ride height. Even small tweaks of 4-6 psi can make a huge difference. I personally don't agree with the instructions of adjusting an air spring sled shock with the sled off the ground, but I know why they do it. it would take too longh to explain, but I set my shocks with my sled on a clean smooth concrete surface and my skis on its dollys. I keep my dollys in perfect condition with the caster wheels greased, and my suspension well lubricated. Small adjustments can actually be seen in the ride height, and even when making small changes on the trails I at least turn the skis back and forth to eliminate binding. Air pressure is air pressure, and in a steady state, pressure changes are constant regardless if the machine is in the air or not. You'd only notice a spike in psi when the suspension compresses over bumps and jumps, but it's static pressure is alwas the same.

3. Don't have too much weight transfer on the front end. This is a tricky subject, and could go on and on, but I think there are too many people who mis-understand how this is supposed to work. I ride aggressively on rough, twisty trails. My Apex has the EVOL X's on it, and I run my A-arms level to the ground, I have just enough pre-load on my front end so that while sitting normally under hard acceleration, my skis are BARELY off the ground. I've found this keeps the steering lighter under steady speed riding, doesnt allow too much "dive", or weight to be planted when braking (which causes a "push" condition in the corners).

4. GREASE, GREASE, GREASE! No suspension is going to funtion properly when it is dirty, or has dried grease in the busings, no grease, or worse yet, rust! Modern sled suspension is far more intricate in its operation than older sleds, and for them to work properly, the have to be able to move! If you're finding yourself struggling with adjustments and can't seem to notice many changes, take the time, pull things apart and use a high-quality marine grade grease. Marine greases repel water better than others, and will cling to surfaces without washing off or getting worn out with the forces of operation.

I spend my days working on hot rods, muscle cars, 4x4's etc, and deal alot with aftermarket suspensions and their technologies. I spend countless hours tweaking very small things sometimes and can usually find hidden potential in most suspensions with minor adjustments and maintainence!
Most every theory of operation is the same for any vehicle, and understanding the principles involved can save a ton of headaches, extra money spent, not to mention aggrivation that's bad enough to make you want to sell something!
When we set up an air suspension we start with a few basics. The weight of the vehicle, driver, all fluids full and a few extra pounds of "baggage" to simulate the weight of the vehicle in operation. Depending on it's intended use, we chose the air springs accordingly.
For an auto-cross or performance street car, or muscle car, most people want them to have a sporty and responsive ride (like the agressive trail rider). We typically chose a spring that at it's median air pressure will support approximately the vehicle weight, or slightly LESS by 3-5%. What this does is to allow us to increase pressure for agressive driving without raising ride height, and when normal street driving conditions are needed, air can be released to soften the ride without lowering the car. Pressure can vary on most by 5-7% with out effecting ride height, but ride quality changes dramatically.
For a big cruiser car, we use an oversize air spring so we are on the lower end of it's weight capacity, so that with minimal pressure the vehicle is at ride height and has a very soft, smooth ride.

What all this long-winded BS means is that don't blame the bar for how your sled rides, because it's only one small part of how the suspension works in unison. If you think the bar is causing your sled to buck and bounce around, look at the rest of the package first, soften up the spring rates and compression adjustments, and I'm confident you'll find that simple adjustments will make you think you bought a new sled!

Good stuff Nate007, interesting read, however, I believe the question is whether or not the 13 mm bar creates a harsher/ stiffer ride and the answer is YES!
How am I sure of this? Simply by taking out an 11 mm sway bar and replacing it with a 13 mm bar in me and my son's 07 RTX's. No other variables to mask/ clutter the results. So apples for apples, all things being the same (except the sway bar) the 13mm definately produces a harsher/ stiffer ride in the front end and can be felt immediately thru the handlebars.

On the positive side, It does reduce some of the ski lift but not all of it.

 

[nate007]

You are correct, but the point of my carpel tunnel explanation was to not get discouraged and choose against it because it's doing a better job of keeping the sled level. By not changing or adjusting anything else, in all reality, the job isn't finished, because now the whole function of the original suspension has been altered. Many however will like the increased feedback and stop there, but my post was to explain in a round about way how to adjust your supension to accomodate the increased function of the sway bar or for that matter, any other mod.
If you're comparing the factory settings, which are never consistant when they are built or set up by the dealer, the suspension is calibrated to work together to the best of its design standards, which means, stiffer spring and compression rates to accomodate a lighter sway bar. Who knows why they chose the set-up they do, but keep in mind they are in business to make money too, many decisions regarding parts selection could be based on bottom line instead of maximizing performance. Any OEM will "maximize performance" as ling as it fits their buget, but it may not suit your needs of maximum performance?

When you change or upgrade one part, unless you're satified with the results, everything else should and can be adjusted to work together.

Ski lift is a whole new round of carpel tunnel for me, dont get me started!

 

[Daranello]

Just bought a 2006 Attak for my wife it has a 13m sway bar shes only 130lbs....should i be going back to 11m?

If shes not an aggressive rider she may like the stock 11mm bar better. It will feel softer in the front end allowing it to be more independent. Put the 13mm on your sled

The bar will fit my FX Nytro?

 

[JROCK]

Just bought a 2006 Attak for my wife it has a 13m sway bar shes only 130lbs....should i be going back to 11m?

If shes not an aggressive rider she may like the stock 11mm bar better. It will feel softer in the front end allowing it to be more independent. Put the 13mm on your sled

The bar will fit my FX Nytro?

That im not sure off i think there different, assumed you had an apex!

 

[blue er]

i have had the 13mm bar for a while now I did the original install write up for ty several years ago.
after running my sled all this time would i go back? hell no
does it ride harsher only slightly on uneven surfaced and side hilling is a little tougher i am usually on groomed trails and lakes anyway.
the one thing with sleds or cars trucks ect is whatever you do to one end you want to do to the other for set up.
my 06 apex er with the kayaba shocks works great with the 13mm bar but you have to reduce preload on the front springs so the a-arms are close to level.
SET TOE as far as iam concerned this is the #1 issue with handling on these sleds some are good out of the box others a all over it's toed in at all it'll plow all over the trail the stock ski'd already suck and need all the help they can get
on the rear pulled strap up one and adjusted spring to 3rd clip 5 cam position put transfer to max and go from there.
this may not be the best set up for you but this setup gave me the most confidence to rail my sled around corners

 

[Super Sled]

Hey Blue Er, when you say "put transfer to max", do you mean for max transfer or set at max length, for less transfer. Just not clear.

 

[blue er]

Hey Blue Er, when you say "put transfer to max", do you mean for max transfer or set at max length, for less transfer. Just not clear.

sorry set it to max transfer

 

[Irv]

Hey Blue Er, when you say "put transfer to max", do you mean for max transfer or set at max length, for less transfer. Just not clear.

Was going to ask the same question but seeing his answer I am still not clear? (Probably newbyism?)

So for "max transfer" the length will be shorter?