FattyWright
Newbie
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2013
- Messages
- 6
I am in need of help please. I have a 2009 Apex RTX that is all stock except 192 traction studs and Woody's 6" Slim Jim dolly's carbides. It handles ok on the hard pack but requires a lot of effert to turn when moving slow or on the tight trails. When in deep snow it goes where ever it wants. I am sure there is something not right with the set up but I'm not sure what as I've never messed with this type of suspension nor do I know what I'm doing. I bought the sled used as it sets. 
APEX 06
TY 4 Stroke God
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 4,016
- Location
- Sheboygan, WI
- Website
- www.sheboyganyamaha.com
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 09 Nytro XTX, 08 Apex Mtx
Need new skis
Force4000
Extreme
What pressure are your front float shocks set too? Might need to adjust the amount of pressure applied.
apexrtxmaniac
Pro
The first thing that you'll want to do unless you are a super agressive jumper (in which case the rear end would probably be bottoming a lot), is you'll want to mess around with the front shocks. Most guys, including myself find that if you adjusting the floats to a pressure that allows the a-arms to sit roughly level with the ground results in the best compromise. If you have less pressure it will corner better but the skis will bite less and you will be more likely to bottom out. If you have more pressure than level, the skis will dig in more, steering effort will be higher, and bottom out resistance will also be higher. To aid in this process, backing off the center (front) skid spring to full soft will help throw more weight on the skis to allow them to bight when you are off the throttle.
Different guys have different opinions on how to approach the limiter strap. Some synch it tight to keep the weight on the skis. This cuts your travel, weight transfer, and usually breaks straps. Others leave the strap lose (two holes I think), and just adjust the weight transfer nuts in the back and the float pressure to determine the weight on the front of the skis.
This leaves your rear spring, weight transfer nuts, and rear shock compression clicker to be adjusted. There are a couple of factors to keep in mind when making these adjustments. Backing the transfer nuts off (closer to the ground) will increase weight transfer. However, the design is such that the more transfer you have, the less coupled the CK skid is. This means the center (front) and rear shocks will work more independently. Less coupling can sometimes yield a more compliant ride. However, the skid becomes less resistant to bottoming. If you adjust the nuts all the way in you will be spinning your track everywhere but the suspension will be coupled, reducing bottoming and increasing ski pressure. Find the balance that works for you.
The balance that has worked for me yields an interesting handling dynamic. Basically when I'm on the throttle the skis are light and easy to steer, when I let off or brake the front end digs in and corners. It takes a while to get used to but is fairly manageable and I enjoy it. That being said, I wish I had different, more agressive and predictable skis.
As for the powder issue, you'll need different skis for that. I personally don't have any experience with different skis for deeper snow but I suspect curve xs would be a good one to look at. I can't be sure that that would solve the problem either. Even if a ski digs in in pow, the sled will lean to the direction of the outside ski which will cause the sled to want to change the direction it is turning. For example, you are turning right, the weight goes to the left ski, the sled leans left and then turns left. Turning the oposite direction of where you want to go in powder is actually part of steering a sled through powder. To negotiate the apex through powder you have to stand up near the rear of the sled and steer with your body weight and the throttle. It takes getting used to but is fairly manageable and very entertaining once you get the hang of it.
Different guys have different opinions on how to approach the limiter strap. Some synch it tight to keep the weight on the skis. This cuts your travel, weight transfer, and usually breaks straps. Others leave the strap lose (two holes I think), and just adjust the weight transfer nuts in the back and the float pressure to determine the weight on the front of the skis.
This leaves your rear spring, weight transfer nuts, and rear shock compression clicker to be adjusted. There are a couple of factors to keep in mind when making these adjustments. Backing the transfer nuts off (closer to the ground) will increase weight transfer. However, the design is such that the more transfer you have, the less coupled the CK skid is. This means the center (front) and rear shocks will work more independently. Less coupling can sometimes yield a more compliant ride. However, the skid becomes less resistant to bottoming. If you adjust the nuts all the way in you will be spinning your track everywhere but the suspension will be coupled, reducing bottoming and increasing ski pressure. Find the balance that works for you.
The balance that has worked for me yields an interesting handling dynamic. Basically when I'm on the throttle the skis are light and easy to steer, when I let off or brake the front end digs in and corners. It takes a while to get used to but is fairly manageable and I enjoy it. That being said, I wish I had different, more agressive and predictable skis.
As for the powder issue, you'll need different skis for that. I personally don't have any experience with different skis for deeper snow but I suspect curve xs would be a good one to look at. I can't be sure that that would solve the problem either. Even if a ski digs in in pow, the sled will lean to the direction of the outside ski which will cause the sled to want to change the direction it is turning. For example, you are turning right, the weight goes to the left ski, the sled leans left and then turns left. Turning the oposite direction of where you want to go in powder is actually part of steering a sled through powder. To negotiate the apex through powder you have to stand up near the rear of the sled and steer with your body weight and the throttle. It takes getting used to but is fairly manageable and very entertaining once you get the hang of it.
FattyWright
Newbie
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2013
- Messages
- 6
The schocks are set at 60 p.s.i. off the ground. I am willing to try anything to make this thing handle better. I can not believe Yamaha would ever put out a snowmobile that handles this bad in deep snow. I don't mind the hard steering at low speeds but the no steering in deep snow has me concerned. Is it possibale there's to much ski pressure because I do notice the track spinning all the time. This suspension is greek to me and i'm not sure even what all the things are or do. thanks for all and any help.
copo427ss
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
No sled turns well in deep snow. You gotta lean. First shim your skis. There's a write up on it here in Ty. Basically a washer under the back side of the rubber on the skis. Next draw your limiter straps up hole. If under your feet feels like its riding to harsh( not bottoming out) loosen your center spring a little. Off the ground set your air pressure to 53lbs. In your floats. Then adjust pressure a lb. at a time increase if the 53 is to soft. The stock skis plain suck. I had much better luck with pilot skis than stockers.
Daranello
Suspended
Pilots WHAT pilots are the worst darn ski for pushing in deep snow. I'll take the stockers over pilots anyway
apexrtxmaniac
Pro
Here is the skid:
1) Back the collar off of the spring on the far left so that the spring barely has pressure on the collar when the rear end is elevated.
2) Set the sled back on the ground. See the straps on the far left of the photo? Remove the bolts that hold them on and re bolt them so that they are slightly slack (second hole I think). It's like adjusting the belt on your jeans, just with bolts instead of a buckle.
3) See the two, large metal nuts on the far right of the photo? The ones that are on the shaft that connects to the rail of the suspension at a 45degree angle. There are two on either side. Use two wrenches to spin those in oposite directions around a half of a turn to separate them. This will allow you to spin them and adjust them. When you spin them you will notice that there are little markings on the rod. These show a scale of where they are adjusted to. Spin these until they are somewhere in the middle of their range.
4) See the triangular shaped block that the torsion spring is sitting on in the upper, right part of the photo? As long as you are 180+, spin that (with a socket or wrench on the bolt head shaped part) until the spring is resting on the "H" side. This is the tallest side and pre-loads the torsion spring the most.
5) See the brass-colored dot in the very center of the photo? The one attached to the reservoir of the shock. Turn that clockwise with a flat-head screw, gently until it stops. As you are turning it you should notice that it "clicks" into place multiple times per rotation. Once it's turned completely in (clockwise), back it off ~5 clicks (counter-clockwise).
These settings along with adjusting the float pressure so that the a-arms are paralel with the ground should yield a good baseline adjustment. Then go riding and report back how you feel about the ride. We can guide you through tweaking these different elements to achieve different handling characteristics.
Example of paralel a-arms on my sled:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/99349027/2012-1 ... .32.14.jpg
As for deep snow, this is how you steer an apex in it: [video width=600 height=400]http://www.youtube.com/v/f3wZRciVTmQ[/video]
They make it look effortless because they are on mountain sleds. Just focus on standing and shifting your weight, it's the best way to steer in deep snow.
1) Back the collar off of the spring on the far left so that the spring barely has pressure on the collar when the rear end is elevated.
2) Set the sled back on the ground. See the straps on the far left of the photo? Remove the bolts that hold them on and re bolt them so that they are slightly slack (second hole I think). It's like adjusting the belt on your jeans, just with bolts instead of a buckle.
3) See the two, large metal nuts on the far right of the photo? The ones that are on the shaft that connects to the rail of the suspension at a 45degree angle. There are two on either side. Use two wrenches to spin those in oposite directions around a half of a turn to separate them. This will allow you to spin them and adjust them. When you spin them you will notice that there are little markings on the rod. These show a scale of where they are adjusted to. Spin these until they are somewhere in the middle of their range.
4) See the triangular shaped block that the torsion spring is sitting on in the upper, right part of the photo? As long as you are 180+, spin that (with a socket or wrench on the bolt head shaped part) until the spring is resting on the "H" side. This is the tallest side and pre-loads the torsion spring the most.
5) See the brass-colored dot in the very center of the photo? The one attached to the reservoir of the shock. Turn that clockwise with a flat-head screw, gently until it stops. As you are turning it you should notice that it "clicks" into place multiple times per rotation. Once it's turned completely in (clockwise), back it off ~5 clicks (counter-clockwise).
These settings along with adjusting the float pressure so that the a-arms are paralel with the ground should yield a good baseline adjustment. Then go riding and report back how you feel about the ride. We can guide you through tweaking these different elements to achieve different handling characteristics.
Example of paralel a-arms on my sled:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/99349027/2012-1 ... .32.14.jpg
As for deep snow, this is how you steer an apex in it: [video width=600 height=400]http://www.youtube.com/v/f3wZRciVTmQ[/video]
They make it look effortless because they are on mountain sleds. Just focus on standing and shifting your weight, it's the best way to steer in deep snow.
FattyWright
Newbie
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2013
- Messages
- 6
Thank you Apexrtxmaniac for the information. The photo helps a lot. I will try this when I get home today and let you know how things work out. 
FattyWright
Newbie
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2013
- Messages
- 6
I made all the chamges that you recommended. The front spring was already lose enough that I could turn it very easy with two fingers so I dont think theres any pressure on it at all so I didn't change it. The triangular block was on the M side so I moved it to the H side as you said. The two large nuts were close to the center of there travel but now they are center as you said. Not really much movement to them. The clicker on the shock was at 11 clicks out when I started so I ran it all the way in and then backed it out 5 clicks. The air pressure on the front shocks was at 60lbs off the ground when I started. I dropped it to as close as I can tell on the gage 52lbs sitting on the floor and that has the a-arms sitting about as level as I can get them. I went for a test run and it does seem to have made a difference in the slow speed turning as far as force needed to turn. That makes me happy. Then I hit the deep snow and I'm only talking about a foot of powder and there is no change. I need to I guess make things clear. When I say it won't turn I mean it won't turn. Not at all no matter standind or sitting leaning or counter steering it will not turn. Even when going very slow it seems that all it want's to do is roll to the outside ski as if to roll over it's that bad. I have riden lots of different sleds and never had anything even close to this experience.
apexrtxmaniac
Pro
Hmmm. I'm not sure what to tell you. I could give you some tips on adjusting the suspension further as far as bump performance and ski pressure go on trails but I'm at a loss as far as the powder steering issue goes. I'm guessing in your case a different ski may be the answer. If you adjust the suspension so that there is more weight on the skis it should make your problem worse. However, if you adjust it so that there is less weight on the skis and more on the track, the skis wont be turning the sled in powder either.
For reference this is how mine handles in 2ft of powder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti42WjbKcPs#t=1m52s The video doesn't depict how much I move around as my head doesnt change position that much but it gives an idea of how I'm always modulating the throttle. Steering response in powder is far from perfect. The Apex shows its weight a little when trying to muscle it around in the powder. It's not bad but it takes a lot more effort to control than other sleds I've ridden in the past. I used to be on a zx chassis (pre-rev) doo and I could guide that sled around in a small amount of powder sitting down without a problem. With the apex I need to stand and sometimes put my outside leg on the inside running board, throw my inside leg way out into the snow and nail the throttle to induce sharp turns (not in video)
Hopefully some other guys who have more experience with ski options can chime in. I'm willing to bet that a ski with more float to support the apex's weight in powder would solve your problem but I cannot be sure.
For reference this is how mine handles in 2ft of powder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti42WjbKcPs#t=1m52s The video doesn't depict how much I move around as my head doesnt change position that much but it gives an idea of how I'm always modulating the throttle. Steering response in powder is far from perfect. The Apex shows its weight a little when trying to muscle it around in the powder. It's not bad but it takes a lot more effort to control than other sleds I've ridden in the past. I used to be on a zx chassis (pre-rev) doo and I could guide that sled around in a small amount of powder sitting down without a problem. With the apex I need to stand and sometimes put my outside leg on the inside running board, throw my inside leg way out into the snow and nail the throttle to induce sharp turns (not in video)
Hopefully some other guys who have more experience with ski options can chime in. I'm willing to bet that a ski with more float to support the apex's weight in powder would solve your problem but I cannot be sure.
copo427ss
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
It's all leaning and throttle control in deep snow. The other problem is the apex's have a steep approach angle on the track so they like to trench instead of getting up ontop of the snow. My rtx thought it was a torpedo until I changed track n skid.
FattyWright
Newbie
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2013
- Messages
- 6
Thanks all for the advice. I am going to leave the set up as it is now after the changes Apexrtxmaniac suggested because the sled does seem to require less effert to steer at low speed turns and on the trail. As for the deep snow after watching the video of Apexrtxmaniac pushing through the deep snow on his Apex it looks like what I'm dealing with so maybe it's not so much the sled as maybe it is me just needing to learn how to ride it in the deep snow. I will try and get some video this weekend to post and maybe then some of you could give me some advice as to what I'm doing wrong. Once again thanks for all the help. 
Grimm
TY 4 Stroke God
Once again, a wider powder ski will help significantly...then adjust your suspension accordingly. Read your owner's manual on how to adjust suspension of your sled. The manual also tells you what each adjustment accomplishes.
FattyWright
Newbie
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2013
- Messages
- 6
I did not get an owners manual with the sled when I bought it. Is there anywhere on line that I can view and read an owners manual for my sled. Also reading other threads on this site there are all kinds of different opinions on what type of ski to run. I live in Northwestern Pa. 50% of my riding would be dirtroad 30% would be wooded trail and 20% would be open field. The only time I really have any issues is when I'm riding the deep snow in the fields. Would it be worth trying another type of ski or should I just stick with the stocker.
