radta7
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Kviper,
Help ourselves? At least AC gave them an extra year on the warranty for the reverse fubar. That's standing behind your product. We spent a lot of money on new machines and we should "help ourselves" to fix an issue that Yamaha should be fixing themselves. I am sorry, but this is the attitude that empowers Yamaha to continue to ignore nagging issues with no fix etc and still get the consumer to pay for it.
06 attak: Handwarmers suck. It takes someone on this site to fix the issue. Issue is not fully addressed until 2011. Darting. Consumer forced to buy new skis and or carbides. thanks to Yamaha Duel carbides have to come to market. Bogey wheel issues. Brights (headlamps) point to the moon.
2011: Hyfax wear. 300 miles and you are lucky. The fix go spend $500 on wheels that should have been fixed under warranty. these are the little things that piss consumers off and could easily be addressed by Yamaha. However, they know if they ignore us that we will go fix it ourselves. (machines not getting more than 10K rpm due to over active knock sensor)
I am not arguing with you. I love their products but for a company that prides themselves on quality and then they turn around and charge for said quality. We yammi riders certainly have to put up with issues that should be simple to fix for them. IE recall. We pay enough for our machines that we should not have to fork over hundreds more to fix something that should never have been an issue in the first place.
Help ourselves? At least AC gave them an extra year on the warranty for the reverse fubar. That's standing behind your product. We spent a lot of money on new machines and we should "help ourselves" to fix an issue that Yamaha should be fixing themselves. I am sorry, but this is the attitude that empowers Yamaha to continue to ignore nagging issues with no fix etc and still get the consumer to pay for it.
06 attak: Handwarmers suck. It takes someone on this site to fix the issue. Issue is not fully addressed until 2011. Darting. Consumer forced to buy new skis and or carbides. thanks to Yamaha Duel carbides have to come to market. Bogey wheel issues. Brights (headlamps) point to the moon.
2011: Hyfax wear. 300 miles and you are lucky. The fix go spend $500 on wheels that should have been fixed under warranty. these are the little things that piss consumers off and could easily be addressed by Yamaha. However, they know if they ignore us that we will go fix it ourselves. (machines not getting more than 10K rpm due to over active knock sensor)
I am not arguing with you. I love their products but for a company that prides themselves on quality and then they turn around and charge for said quality. We yammi riders certainly have to put up with issues that should be simple to fix for them. IE recall. We pay enough for our machines that we should not have to fork over hundreds more to fix something that should never have been an issue in the first place.
LJ 452
TY 4 Stroke God
kviper said:
I'm talking about the N/A version.
So two engines that are within 7cc and 5hp shouldn't be compared to each other? Really!
RPM and no of cylinders is irelevant? Again I'm talking about a total package. So when the weight of one or two cylinders is added, it more than just that, head, crank, block, ignition system, exhaust, etc. then the chassis to hold extra mass. All of that mass needs to start rotating, then stop rotating. Which brings us to RPM, the more rotating mass the longer it takes to accelerate or decelerate the said mass. Now imagine the gyro effect difference between the two. With a larger mass and higher RPM it makes the engine a more powerfull gyro. Remember the old spin the bike tire while sitting on a turntable example? All of that effects cornering, just look into F1 bikes and what they deal with regarding cornering. The above is only part of why the design of the engine is important. Hell, if all Cat wanted to do was compete with the Apex motor wouldn't they just stick a hyabussa engine in a sled?
What I'm saying is the 1100 (1056) performs quite well compared to a similar size and output Yamaha engine, a company know for making incredible engines. They've gone about t in a different way, yet achieved very close results and may have found some benifits in doing so.
kviper
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radta7
With the nature of the problem's and the number of them I would sure hope they would give an extra year of warranty and in fact there were many people that lost a good deal of this very bad season waiting for part's and fixes.
The hand warmer's all worked but came up short for some. They could have been warmer for me but not a real problem. Gauntlet's for the very cold day's and they were more than adequate, you could even drop back to light gloves and turn them down some. Head light, what ever I guess it could be better.
I had an 06 GT, one pair of marginal snow wheel's on curve of rail and limiter pulled up one hole. 6,000 mile's, three set's of slide's. First set went fast because it was before the wheel's and adjustment's.
07 Attak, one pair of wheel's on curve and one pair in largest gap in rear, limiter up one hole. Let the hifax wear to wear line and then they will run thousand's of mile's. 5,200 mi, third set of hifax went in just before I sold it.
My 12 standard 128", two kit's limiter up one. Only 460 mi but slide's look like new.
$500 on wheel's? $140 for two marginal snow wheel kit's. A friend just priced a wheel kit for his XTX, I think he said it was $280 ish to replace all wheel's with larger diameter wheel's.
What's a couple hundred buck's is this sport!
With the nature of the problem's and the number of them I would sure hope they would give an extra year of warranty and in fact there were many people that lost a good deal of this very bad season waiting for part's and fixes.
The hand warmer's all worked but came up short for some. They could have been warmer for me but not a real problem. Gauntlet's for the very cold day's and they were more than adequate, you could even drop back to light gloves and turn them down some. Head light, what ever I guess it could be better.
I had an 06 GT, one pair of marginal snow wheel's on curve of rail and limiter pulled up one hole. 6,000 mile's, three set's of slide's. First set went fast because it was before the wheel's and adjustment's.
07 Attak, one pair of wheel's on curve and one pair in largest gap in rear, limiter up one hole. Let the hifax wear to wear line and then they will run thousand's of mile's. 5,200 mi, third set of hifax went in just before I sold it.
My 12 standard 128", two kit's limiter up one. Only 460 mi but slide's look like new.
$500 on wheel's? $140 for two marginal snow wheel kit's. A friend just priced a wheel kit for his XTX, I think he said it was $280 ish to replace all wheel's with larger diameter wheel's.
What's a couple hundred buck's is this sport!
kviper
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LJ 452
Most of Cat's problem's are with the Turbo and the Turbo was referenced several times earlier in the thread but if you want to compare the NA version well it will not hang with a Nytro.
As far as more cylinder's being bad due to more rotating mass and gyro effect etc. The latest version of Apex is probably the most throttle responsive, quickest revving snowmobile motor ever built. So how much difference in motor weight is there between the Cat with the Turbo, intercooler and all plumbing and the Apex motor? I don't know for sure but i bet you would be surprised!
I suspect all the in line four's will fade away in motorcycle road racing and the big twin's will take over from what you say? LOL
I don't have a problem with the triple but it would be very hard to give up the fun factor of the four banger.
I don't think there has ever been a sled built that had no issue's. Everything considered it is damn had to beat the latest version of Apex.
Most of Cat's problem's are with the Turbo and the Turbo was referenced several times earlier in the thread but if you want to compare the NA version well it will not hang with a Nytro.
As far as more cylinder's being bad due to more rotating mass and gyro effect etc. The latest version of Apex is probably the most throttle responsive, quickest revving snowmobile motor ever built. So how much difference in motor weight is there between the Cat with the Turbo, intercooler and all plumbing and the Apex motor? I don't know for sure but i bet you would be surprised!
I suspect all the in line four's will fade away in motorcycle road racing and the big twin's will take over from what you say? LOL
I don't have a problem with the triple but it would be very hard to give up the fun factor of the four banger.
I don't think there has ever been a sled built that had no issue's. Everything considered it is damn had to beat the latest version of Apex.
LJ 452
TY 4 Stroke God
kviper said:
Again, clearly you are referring to rail-bed type trails, right. Drag race, top end, I doubt as the Nytro at least in short track stock form is far from a top end machine. Why would it be, it wasn't designed for that.
Have you ever been on a new Cat Procross or even SnoPro? I have, and I can say first hand my Nytro even with Mods couldn't stay with my SnoPro in the twisty's. The Nytro would wear you out, which would certainly result in fatigued riding which useually results in mistakes, and or slower cornering. Can you get a Nytro to run well, sure. It's not out of the box, and it more than likely won't be cheap.
kviper said:
It's probably more of a difference than you think. Now add the turbo to the Apex and look at the difference! Point is, I wouldn't by a turbo to ride the way I do, just as I wouldn't buy an Apex to ride the way I do, wrong sled, wrong purpose. However, if I wanted to go to 200+HP, you have to consider both as viable competitive options. Quite frankly, the Cat is less expensive to boost, and based on reports it will likely handle better over a broader range of terrain. As for throttle responsive, yes the Apex spools incredibly fast, but that's just it, it has to, it dosn't make a ton of power until it hits that 10-11k band. The gear reduction actually serves double duty for this motor in sled applications. The engine was designed to operate on a bike, where you can rev the motor before engaging the clutch. It was designed to run what 12-15k in the bike. Bottom line the Apex motor needs to achieve 3,000 more RPM in the same time, does it?
kviper said:
No, Yamaha approached it differently, enter the cross plane. Making essentially two twins. Ever think about why they put all of that R&D into it. Because the twins were beating them out of the corners, wait that's like my style of snowmobiling, corner to corner, huh weird.
Xkviper said:
The Apex on a rail bed or long sweeping trail is without a doubt at home. That sled loves to stretch and it does it while being smooth and stable. There is no question it's a performer in that category, it struggles inmost others however.
kviper said:
If you ride fairly smooth, long wide open trails, otherwise it's not as hard to beat.
