Dynamo^Joe
Newbie
I don't know of another way to educate a novice tuner to be able to talk to an experienced tuner. My goal is for a novice tuner to be able to pick up this clutch book and read it, he/she would have a good idea of what other experienced tuners talk about.
My thinking, the definitions are not supposed to be arbitrary based on someone's way of thinking. The definitions should be built on a set of rules based on facts of the subject. Trying to keep a word from tuners having different definitions of it. Like the word "overshift" is attached to a context of a subject.
In this context (facts that surround an rpm event), relating to this subject matter (accelerating at w.o.t.), what is the true meaning of the word Overshift?
Quotes Aaen: The sole purpose of clutch tuning is to have the system matched in such a way that the engine is held at it's power peak all the way from low ratio to high ratio.
Quotes BRP pulley development: The goal of clutch calibration is to keep the engine, at full throttle, at it's peak power RPM and at the same time to select the highest possible gear ratio dictated by the load on the drive axle. The speed diagram illustrates what the goal of good clutch calibration is.
From tuners views, describing the events they've seen and solutions to a problem like this from experiences....I would say overshift is tied to under rev. Under shift is tied over rev.
If the ratio change "duration" is too small, like the secondary won't upshift,(too low of helix angle/too high of secondary spring forces) then engine speed flares into over rev.
If the ratio change "duration" is too large, like the secondary upshifts too easily, (too large of helix angle/too low of secondary spring forces) then the engine speed lowers into under rev.
Could all the information be overlapped and connected to say that...
Over shift: While accelerating at wide open throttle;
a. (clutch up shift) shifting the clutches out faster than the motor can handle, revealing low rpms.
b. (engine speed) A variation of low rpm caused by a surge of increased secondary load against the primary load.
c. (time) reveals accumulated time not accelerating at rated rpms.
Because of Aaen's reference point of having a straight rpm from low ratio to high ratio, then it could be thought as over shift is a separate detail from under shift.
Would a. b. c. be suitable for the definition of Overshift?
My thinking, the definitions are not supposed to be arbitrary based on someone's way of thinking. The definitions should be built on a set of rules based on facts of the subject. Trying to keep a word from tuners having different definitions of it. Like the word "overshift" is attached to a context of a subject.
In this context (facts that surround an rpm event), relating to this subject matter (accelerating at w.o.t.), what is the true meaning of the word Overshift?
Quotes Aaen: The sole purpose of clutch tuning is to have the system matched in such a way that the engine is held at it's power peak all the way from low ratio to high ratio.
Quotes BRP pulley development: The goal of clutch calibration is to keep the engine, at full throttle, at it's peak power RPM and at the same time to select the highest possible gear ratio dictated by the load on the drive axle. The speed diagram illustrates what the goal of good clutch calibration is.
From tuners views, describing the events they've seen and solutions to a problem like this from experiences....I would say overshift is tied to under rev. Under shift is tied over rev.
If the ratio change "duration" is too small, like the secondary won't upshift,(too low of helix angle/too high of secondary spring forces) then engine speed flares into over rev.
If the ratio change "duration" is too large, like the secondary upshifts too easily, (too large of helix angle/too low of secondary spring forces) then the engine speed lowers into under rev.
Could all the information be overlapped and connected to say that...
Over shift: While accelerating at wide open throttle;
a. (clutch up shift) shifting the clutches out faster than the motor can handle, revealing low rpms.
b. (engine speed) A variation of low rpm caused by a surge of increased secondary load against the primary load.
c. (time) reveals accumulated time not accelerating at rated rpms.
Because of Aaen's reference point of having a straight rpm from low ratio to high ratio, then it could be thought as over shift is a separate detail from under shift.
Would a. b. c. be suitable for the definition of Overshift?
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
Dynamo^Joe said:
Dynamo Joe is the the man when it come to clutching! I wish I had 1/10 tenth of his clutching knowledge.
Freddie
Bpatch50
Expert
overshift
I would say yes, abc is a good example of an overshift. It doesn't say what the rpm's creep back up to but wouldn't the correct action to be to adjust the secondary? Perhaps add a spring with a higher initial force or try a helix with a less steep angle?
I'm thrilled to see Dynamo Joe posting here on TY! DJ - did you get a Nytro yet?
-Tim
I would say yes, abc is a good example of an overshift. It doesn't say what the rpm's creep back up to but wouldn't the correct action to be to adjust the secondary? Perhaps add a spring with a higher initial force or try a helix with a less steep angle?
I'm thrilled to see Dynamo Joe posting here on TY! DJ - did you get a Nytro yet?
-Tim
The Aaen book is pretty good …I’ve read it many times.
A couple of years ago – I had the BRP clutch manual and who ever wrote that has a real good understanding. Funny…how some can read it – but still interpret what he is saying to their own facts?
Every word in the manual is correct and they have some very subtle tips if you read right.
It is strange…how the manual can be so correct – yet they missed an issue in assembly? Don’t ask – I won’t tell –not that big of a deal.
Clutching talk has evolved to using words like this does that and that does this…however – the actual answer is balance. Both sets have to be happy with each other. You can set it up heavy or light and the speed will be the same - however light is better.
The best example of overshift – is when a sled leaves the line in a drag race and in short order, the skis slam back to the ground. The shift is too fast at a point – letting the engine come off its power curve.
Most sleds come that way out of the box as it’s easier on the engine to run above the power curve than under it (lugging)
A couple of years ago – I had the BRP clutch manual and who ever wrote that has a real good understanding. Funny…how some can read it – but still interpret what he is saying to their own facts?
Every word in the manual is correct and they have some very subtle tips if you read right.
It is strange…how the manual can be so correct – yet they missed an issue in assembly? Don’t ask – I won’t tell –not that big of a deal.
Clutching talk has evolved to using words like this does that and that does this…however – the actual answer is balance. Both sets have to be happy with each other. You can set it up heavy or light and the speed will be the same - however light is better.
The best example of overshift – is when a sled leaves the line in a drag race and in short order, the skis slam back to the ground. The shift is too fast at a point – letting the engine come off its power curve.
Most sleds come that way out of the box as it’s easier on the engine to run above the power curve than under it (lugging)
renegadeoffunk
Veteran
I'm learning!!! Thanks for some helpful information! I might understand this clutching some day yet!!
To be honest - if you do - you will the first - there is no end.
I drove a Nissan the other week with CVT - its clutched a little too tight - like to back off the secondary just a bit. hmmmmmm
I drove a Nissan the other week with CVT - its clutched a little too tight - like to back off the secondary just a bit. hmmmmmm
Dynamo^Joe
Newbie
ou can set it up heavy or light and the speed will be the same - however light is better.
----------------------
Explain what
1]light
2]heavy
is.
thanks
----------------------
Explain what
1]light
2]heavy
is.
thanks
