EarthX ETZ14C feedback

[snowdust]

Looking at going to this battery for next year and looking for feedback for those that have run them this year. I run a GPS and heated pad for the Ipad with key on so I'm thinking on real cold days I could turn the key on and let those draw power for a bit before starting to "wake up" the lithium battery and get good cranking even when cold.
I ran a generic lithium battery in the past and it was not great when real cold but I didn't have anything to draw power on it before starting back then. It also wasn't the newer technology that EarthX is using now in the snowmobile batteries so considering trying lithium again.

 

[NYTurbo]

I run the etx36 and it’s been great.

 

[jonlafon1]

Running them in both sleds this year.. Many starts this winter -10-20.. I plug a charger into these when not in use.. So they are either unplugged and riding for the day or always plugged in, in the cold and the heated garage.

 

[KnappAttack]

Just make sure if you get a lithium battery that it doesn't have BMS system that shuts the battery down in the cold temps. If it has BMS that shuts down in the cold weather, you will have issues burning up the voltage regulator who the BMS shuts down in the cold.


The 14 does not have the BMS which is a good thing.

 

[snowdust]

Just make sure if you get a lithium battery that it doesn't have BMS system that shuts the battery down in the cold temps. If it has BMS that shuts down in the cold weather, you will have issues burning up the voltage regulator who the BMS shuts down in the cold.


The 14 does not have the BMS which is a good thing.

Yeah I saw that. I am wondering how much draw is needed to really wake these up to crank well in the real cold weather. Any idea? I'm thinking my heated pad for the ipad and the GPS should draw a decent amount, but not sure if you need a significant draw like turning the sled over.

 

[NYTurbo]

Just make sure if you get a lithium battery that it doesn't have BMS system that shuts the battery down in the cold temps. If it has BMS that shuts down in the cold weather, you will have issues burning up the voltage regulator who the BMS shuts down in the cold.


The 14 does not have the BMS which is a good thing.

Talked to earthx and their snowmobile dedicated lithium’s are designed with cold weather in mind.

 

[KnappAttack]

Talked to earthx and their snowmobile dedicated lithium’s are designed with cold weather in mind.

Thats awesome, I wonder why these other companies have the BMS system shutdown in the cold. Seems crazy.

 

[earthling]

Thats awesome, I wonder why these other companies have the BMS system shutdown in the cold. Seems crazy.

All batteries (even the earthx) will have some form of BMS, they use the BMS for cell balancing. The earthx lifepo4 batteries just do not need the additional cold protection circuit. Other companies may be shipping lithium ion batteries which still need cold protection.

 

[KnappAttack]

All batteries (even the earthx) will have some form of BMS, they use the BMS for cell balancing. The earthx lifepo4 batteries just do not need the additional cold protection circuit. Other companies may be shipping lithium ion batteries which still need cold protection.

Shorai has no BMS built in, neither does the ETZ14C. There are many that do not, and many that do, I didn't even know there were some that shut off in the cold till this year reading about the issues. Got to read the fine print on them to find out I guess.

 

[earthling]

Shorai has no BMS built in, neither does the ETZ14C. There are many that do not, and many that do, I didn't even know there were some that shut off in the cold till this year reading about the issues. Got to read the fine print on them to find out I guess.

They all have a BMS, what some do not have is a cut off circuit for cold temperature operation. A lithium pack of any kind is made up of individual cells wired in series at minimum, those cells need to be balanced and current managed for optimum performance and the charging current needs to be spread out such that individual cells can be charged to reach a voltage balance (equilibrium) across all cells, the only thing that makes this happen is a BMS.

From the earthx website explaining the difference between the ETX36C and hte ETZ14C

The ETX36C/D has 320CCA; weighs 3.9 pounds; has 12.4Ah capacity and has the full battery management system with a 2 year warranty. The cost is $369.

The ETZ14C has 330CCA; weighs 2.5 pounds; has 6.8Ah capacity and has the battery management system minus over discharge protection and excessive cranking protection so it will not cut off in cold weather starts with a 1 year warranty. This battery was designed for high cranking amps in the cold. The cost is $259.

It still has a BMS, I do not know how it got started that it had been removed completely although, as I said, technically you can take any lithium battery and remove that circuit to temporarily bypass the cold weather management protection and it will work.... for awhile.

 

[KnappAttack]

They all have a BMS, what some do not have is a cut off circuit for cold temperature operation. A lithium pack of any kind is made up of individual cells wired in series at minimum, those cells need to be balanced and current managed for optimum performance and the charging current needs to be spread out such that individual cells can be charged to reach a voltage balance (equilibrium) across all cells, the only thing that makes this happen is a BMS.

From the earthx website explaining the difference between the ETX36C and hte ETZ14C

The ETX36C/D has 320CCA; weighs 3.9 pounds; has 12.4Ah capacity and has the full battery management system with a 2 year warranty. The cost is $369.

The ETZ14C has 330CCA; weighs 2.5 pounds; has 6.8Ah capacity and has the battery management system minus over discharge protection and excessive cranking protection so it will not cut off in cold weather starts with a 1 year warranty. This battery was designed for high cranking amps in the cold. The cost is $259.

It still has a BMS, I do not know how it got started that it had been removed completely although, as I said, technically you can take any lithium battery and remove that circuit to temporarily bypass the cold weather management protection and it will work.... for awhile.

While EarthX may have BMS, other lithium batteries out there do not have it built in. You are only talking about one brand of battery here, I'm saying other brands do not.

Like I said before, Shorai does not, nor does Banshee to name a couple of brands that do not have BMS built in. Shorai does have a special charger with BMS, but its not in the battery itself, so they do not have BMS. The Banshee and Shorai I know do not shut off in the cold.

Noco and BatteryTender lithiums have BMS built in and shut off in the cold I know.

So like I said, some lithiums have BMS built in, and some don't.

I had a Shorai that never ever had any charger hooked to it ever that went 8 years in all cold weather & snowmobiles, that didn't fail until the GAP flasher killed it. It had no BMS built into it.

 

[earthling]

While EarthX may have BMS, other lithium batteries out there do not have it built in. You are only talking about one brand of battery here, I'm saying other brands do not.

Like I said before, Shorai does not, nor does Banshee to name a couple of brands that do not have BMS built in. Shorai does have a special charger with BMS, but its not in the battery itself, so they do not have BMS. The Banshee and Shorai I know do not shut off in the cold.

Noco and BatteryTender lithiums have BMS built in and shut off in the cold I know.

So like I said, some lithiums have BMS built in, and some don't.

I had a Shorai that never ever had any charger hooked to it ever that went 8 years in all cold weather & snowmobiles, that didn't fail until the GAP flasher killed it. It had no BMS built into it.

ok, but it does not matter whether the BMS is internal or external although external makes no sense for a consumer application, any lithium battery still *should* have a BMS to manage cell balance, discharge and charge protection, and other issues. The primary role of a BMS is NOT to manage cold temperatures, that is only a portion of what a BMS does. The BMS is primarily there to manage the individual cells. While you can just 'hook your charger' to a lithium battery they will NOT charge optimally and they will have a shorter life in doing so. The flasher probably could not have killed that battery if it had a BMS, thats it job, to protect the battery. You do not lose anything by having a BMS internal to the battery as long as you are buying quality batteries. On the other hand, any battery without a BMS is directly exposed to potential damage... constantly. If it wasn't a thing to be concerned about, why does shorai sell a special smart charger with a BMS cable and why does the battery have a BMS port so you can monitor individual cells. I am not being argumentative, just don't want to see people make avoidable mistakes. I have lots of lithium packs (at one point numbering in the hundreds) that I have built for drones, rockets, planes, and ROVs that all use an external BMS but that is only because I only charge those with a very expensive charging system and we constantly swap entire batteries, culling bad individual cells. For that application where the battery is the only power source, the BMS is even more important but because we use programmable chargers which contain a built in BMS with logging and we swap the entire battery between runs there is no advantage to having a BMS on every battery. For a consumer application like snowmobiles, I would definitely only use batteries with a built in BMS, cold weather cut off circuit is optional.