Engine reinstalled and won't start...any ideas

[kinger]

It's flooding ALL the cylinders so it's not just one injector...

focus on the IAC circuit... it is basically just like a coolant thermostat with bees wax inside. The temperature of the coolant moves the air pintle, controls the amount of air flowing around the closed throttle bodies.
If it's not flowing any air, or not enough, it still injects the programmed fuel.

True on the all cylinders thing but my car was doing that because it would not run and it would hit or miss on the good cylinders and because it just couldn't get started it just would eventually flood the whole thing.



I agree something not right on a sensor or air related. Do you have a manual? I would trouble shoot all the electrical related to the IAC. Also since it just ran the first time you had it together there is a good chance you now have a bad ground or short in the electrical to the IAC system.

Sounds like a problem I would have...friggin luck. Wish I was close to help ya work on it. May need to take the night off and collect your throughts re-trace your steps on the re-install and think of anything you may have overlooked or your buddies overlooked. Its got fuel and spark and runs barely with throttle so I think its safe to say your down to air and that should be fairly easy to trace. good luck!

 

[stoutner]

I wish I had a manual. I guess I could buy one if I had to. I'll Ohm out the injectors tomorrow and see if the are all the same.

Tonight, I took out all the plugs, blew off all the gas, cleaned them. Then I took a small hose hooked to my air comressor and blew air into all of the cylinders to clean the gas out. I got all of the extra gas out and checked spark plugs. They are firing bright blue. Reinstalled plugs, engine cleaned out and figured it might start. turned key with no throttle for about 5 - 10 seconds and nothing. turned back on turned key for about 10 seconds at 1/8th throttle and it will try to fire but only very slightly. It is very unlikely that the engine flooded that quickly and in theory should have started....pissin me off.

Hey Kinger, I read your thread about your oil pump issue. I got about halfway through and thought NO WAY COULD YOUR DEALER CHANGE YOUR WATER PUMP WITHOUT REMOVING THE BOTTOM. It probably can't be done. Once you pull that shaft out, the sprocket and chain are dangling in the crankcase. I can't believe they even tried it.

 

[DC5]

Did you use the alignment marks on the cam gears or on the cams?

 

[stoutner]

Did you use the alignment marks on the cam gears or on the cams?

I used the little black dots on the cams. Line them up with the arrows on the cam caps while at the same time had the crank at TDC according to its alignment marks. I assumed that the gears on the cams don't matter as long as you install them to align with the bolt holes. Is this correct?

 

[kinger]

I wish I had a manual. I guess I could buy one if I had to. I'll Ohm out the injectors tomorrow and see if the are all the same.

Hey Kinger, I read your thread about your oil pump issue. I got about halfway through and thought NO WAY COULD YOUR DEALER CHANGE YOUR WATER PUMP WITHOUT REMOVING THE BOTTOM. It probably can't be done. Once you pull that shaft out, the sprocket and chain are dangling in the crankcase. I can't believe they even tried it.

Your telling me, it was a case of mistaken identity they thought they were working on a R1 engine (which the oil and water pump are seperate). One would have thought the shaft would have pulled out a little hard LOL

One last thing did you say you already checked the TPS sensor? If the electrical checks out then its the cam timing and even though you tripple checked them there still might be something wrong there.

 

[DC5]

As long as the marks are correct on the cams then it is properly aligned.

 

[sneakattak88]

I just called my budy and told him to look at this poste because this nightmare of yours is a copy cat of mine,, and it was something so so stupid we had done,,,had to do with the cam sensor I think,, and let me say Im no mechanic,but it was my ideal to look at the order the plugs were firing at then he fixed it,, i hope he gets on and he walks you thru this,, he is awsome with engines but not so helpfull with my turbo issues LOL

 

[mbarryracing]

Do a compression test, if the valve timing is off it will be out of range (high or low).

Check the IAC... You didn't listen to us about the valves in your bad cylinder. Wayne, check the IAC.

 

[stoutner]

Wayne, by chance did you disconnect your speed pickup sensor on the drive shaft? Is that plugged in?

Make sure the tube to the IAC is not pinched or restricted, you didn't leave a rag or paper towel stuffed in it or something.

The day of the Trail Shootout on 4th lake in Old Forge a few weeks ago, BigMooseTurbo had HUGE issues with his IAC valve closing off (not flowing any air) and the engine did the exact same thing your describing !!!
Huffed black (rich) exhaust and wouldn't idle or or rev up, wet plugs, the whole bit.
We spent HOURS that day at Big Moose Yamaha trouble shooting all the sensors and fuel pressures, etc. to finally concluded that it was the IAC valve.

Mauri,

The speed sensoe is still hooked up.

On the IAC circuit, I'm not sure what you mean. Which hose or hoses are you talking about? P.S. I did find a vacuum or some type of hose unhooked from my #4 throttle body. I hooked it back uo and had high hopes...nothing

 

[kinger]

I think he means the valve it self. Having never seen a IAC on a apex I beleive its the top thing in the first pict you posted. That tube like cylinder should be the iac valve, check to see that it moves freely and if you have a source of vacumn you can test them to.

 

[mbarryracing]

The IAC (idle air control) valve / pintle is sealed inside the long aluminum housing right on top of the fuel rail above the throttle bodies. This unit will have 4 brass air adjustment screws in a square configuration, to sync the throttle bodies... (it is NOT serviceable, it's like a thermostat and is moved by coolant heat not vacuum like a fuel press reg.)
It will have 2 soft rubber hoses / elbows that go to a black plastic resonator and then another from the black box to the airbox on the left side (above the clutch) of the sled. (in your second diagram)
If the air flow is anyway restricted to this, it runs just like you described. The fuel system / PCM anticipates the additional air flow from this and is compensating additional fuel for it. No air = too rich.
You can try blowing a little shop air into this to make sure you hear the air flowing thru.
Perhaps one of you might have plugged the hose to prevent misc parts falling in when you tore it apart the last time. Or it's kinked closed...
We've seen rags and shop towels inside charge tubes and intercoolers before. Customers couldn't figure out why the sleds wouldn't run.

 

[Ted Jannetty]

I think fuel is flowing back to the tank because I can hear it when cycling the key. I have full bright blue spark on all four plugs (After I take them out and blow the gas out of them.) I also pulled the return line off, hooked a hose to it and watched the fuel flowing. It is flowing very well.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that it is a computer/electronics issue. It is sparking great and getting plenty of fuel on all four cylinders. I think it is just sparking at the wrong time...like the cam sensor or ECU is not working right.

I'm so frustrated...I am seriously considering parting it out and buying a 2 stroke....probably Polaris.

Don't give up Yet, I still think it is Cam timing.

 

[stoutner]

Ted,

I agree that it sounds like it but when I first put it together last week and tried to start it, it did the exact same thing. Tried to fire but wouldn't, gas fouling etc.Finally it just "caught" and fired up after trying for about a half hour. It ran great for the 50 seconds until the bent valves caused the motor to stop.

I tore it apart yesterday and rechecked the cams and carnk. The marks are dead on. I don't know what else I can do other that spin the motor, align the crank marks and and check to see if the cam dots are lined up with the arrows. They are perfect.

 

[wantboost]

can you disconnect your fuel supply line and try to run it on starting fluid for couple secs.i think this would tell you if its pumping too much fuel.just another idea

 

[Ted Jannetty]

Ted,

I agree that it sounds like it but when I first put it together last week and tried to start it, it did the exact same thing. Tried to fire but wouldn't, gas fouling etc.Finally it just "caught" and fired up after trying for about a half hour. It ran great for the 50 seconds until the bent valves caused the motor to stop.

I tore it apart yesterday and rechecked the cams and carnk. The marks are dead on. I don't know what else I can do other that spin the motor, align the crank marks and and check to see if the cam dots are lined up with the arrows. They are perfect.

You may be using the wrong crank marks, use a dial indicator on the #1 piston.

Ted.