Mtn-Track
Extreme
So draining your fuel tanks may not be doing what you think it does(?)................
Mechanics see ethanol damaging small engines
Fuel blend, already implicated in high food prices, linked to rise in repairs
By Alex Johnson, Reporter
MSNBC
updated 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
Rick Kitchings has been a small-engine mechanic for about 30 years, and he's been busier than ever lately. Recently, a customer came into his shop in Savannah, Ga., with a string trimmer that had barely been used. "It looked like it just came off the showroom floor, but the motor was absolutely shot, absolutely worn out," Kitchings said. The owner had fueled the trimmer with an gasoline-ethanol blend, which is becoming increasingly common thanks to a federal mandate to convert to biofuels.
Although the Web is rife with complaints from car owners who say ethanol damaged their engines, ethanol producers and automakers say it's safe to use in cars. But smaller engines — the two-cycle utility engines in lawnmowers, chain saws and outboard boat motors — are another story.
Benjamin Mallisham, owner of a lawnmower repair shop in Tuscaloosa, Ala., said at least 40 percent of the lawnmower engines he repairs these days have been damaged by ethanol.
"When you put that ethanol in here, it eats up the insides or rusts them out," Mallisham said. "All the rubber gaskets and parts — it eats those up."
The sludge problem:
Auto mechanics say the same thing takes place in car engines, where debris dislodged by ethanol in gas station fuel tanks can gum things up. But car engines are highly sophisticated; especially in later models, they're equipped to comfortably handle the fallout of ethanol-blended gas, mechanics said.
The Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group for ethanol producers based in Washington, says there's no evidence that ethanol can damage smaller engines, either.
"Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance," the association said.
But mechanics across the country insist that as gasoline blended with ethanol takes over in more gas stations, lawnmowers and boat motors everywhere are choking.
"They're starving for gas, because the little needle holes in them are stopped up with the gel that happens when that stuff breaks down," Mallisham said. "It stops them up so it can't run."
Here's what happens: In smaller engines, ethanol can create a chain reaction of events that end up clogging valves and rusting out small metal parts — including, crucially, carburetors.
"When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you've now put a chemical substance in there that's going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have," said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti's Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va. In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, "the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you're lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it's actually not lubricating the engine."
That creates a gummy residue, called shellack, that clogs filters and hoses. And it does no good to follow the rocking-chair wisdom that says you'll be fine if you drain the tank before you gas it back up. "People will tell you you can take the gas out of them and it won't happen, but it's the residue that does the damage," Mallisham said.
Ethanol already under pressure:
Most gasoline sold in the United States is now mixed with up to 10 percent ethanol, according to industry estimates. Use of the blended fuel, often called E10, has grown with a federal mandate designed to boost the levels of renewable fuels at the pump. In many areas, it's the only gasoline widely sold.
The fuel blend has been the focus of debate in recent months as analysts and some farmers say the diversion of corn to ethanol production has led to higher prices for corn in its use as a food crop. The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a request for a temporary 50 percent cut in new mandates for ethanol production because of concern that they are helping drive up food costs.
In a study released this week, researchers at Purdue University in Indiana found that corn prices had risen to $4 a bushel, the highest in a decade, largely because of the higher prices farmers can demand from fuel producers.
"Three dollars was just because the price of oil went up and the market demanded more ethanol to substitute for gasoline," said Wallace E. Tyner, co-director of Purdue's Center for Global Trade Analysis.
David Summers, a biofuels researcher at Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla, said that while ethanol was cheaper to produce than pure gasoline because it is subsidized, vehicles may also get fewer miles to the gallon.
"It was the wonder fuel to get us out of trouble — and it won't," he said. When you add in its tendency to damage some engines, many mechanics and green fuel advocates are asking whether ethanol is worth it.
"There is no massive PR machine working to point out the downsides of ethanol, like there is on the other side," said Christa Westerberg, a lawyer in Stoughton, Wis., who has represented opponents of ethanol plants in Wisconsin.
Rick Kitchings, the mechanic in Georgia, said consumers simply should insist on pure gasoline for their small utility engines.
"Theoretically, avoid ethanol," he said. "Avoid ethanol."
Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/
Mechanics see ethanol damaging small engines
Fuel blend, already implicated in high food prices, linked to rise in repairs
By Alex Johnson, Reporter
MSNBC
updated 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
Rick Kitchings has been a small-engine mechanic for about 30 years, and he's been busier than ever lately. Recently, a customer came into his shop in Savannah, Ga., with a string trimmer that had barely been used. "It looked like it just came off the showroom floor, but the motor was absolutely shot, absolutely worn out," Kitchings said. The owner had fueled the trimmer with an gasoline-ethanol blend, which is becoming increasingly common thanks to a federal mandate to convert to biofuels.
Although the Web is rife with complaints from car owners who say ethanol damaged their engines, ethanol producers and automakers say it's safe to use in cars. But smaller engines — the two-cycle utility engines in lawnmowers, chain saws and outboard boat motors — are another story.
Benjamin Mallisham, owner of a lawnmower repair shop in Tuscaloosa, Ala., said at least 40 percent of the lawnmower engines he repairs these days have been damaged by ethanol.
"When you put that ethanol in here, it eats up the insides or rusts them out," Mallisham said. "All the rubber gaskets and parts — it eats those up."
The sludge problem:
Auto mechanics say the same thing takes place in car engines, where debris dislodged by ethanol in gas station fuel tanks can gum things up. But car engines are highly sophisticated; especially in later models, they're equipped to comfortably handle the fallout of ethanol-blended gas, mechanics said.
The Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group for ethanol producers based in Washington, says there's no evidence that ethanol can damage smaller engines, either.
"Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance," the association said.
But mechanics across the country insist that as gasoline blended with ethanol takes over in more gas stations, lawnmowers and boat motors everywhere are choking.
"They're starving for gas, because the little needle holes in them are stopped up with the gel that happens when that stuff breaks down," Mallisham said. "It stops them up so it can't run."
Here's what happens: In smaller engines, ethanol can create a chain reaction of events that end up clogging valves and rusting out small metal parts — including, crucially, carburetors.
"When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you've now put a chemical substance in there that's going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have," said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti's Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va. In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, "the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you're lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it's actually not lubricating the engine."
That creates a gummy residue, called shellack, that clogs filters and hoses. And it does no good to follow the rocking-chair wisdom that says you'll be fine if you drain the tank before you gas it back up. "People will tell you you can take the gas out of them and it won't happen, but it's the residue that does the damage," Mallisham said.
Ethanol already under pressure:
Most gasoline sold in the United States is now mixed with up to 10 percent ethanol, according to industry estimates. Use of the blended fuel, often called E10, has grown with a federal mandate designed to boost the levels of renewable fuels at the pump. In many areas, it's the only gasoline widely sold.
The fuel blend has been the focus of debate in recent months as analysts and some farmers say the diversion of corn to ethanol production has led to higher prices for corn in its use as a food crop. The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a request for a temporary 50 percent cut in new mandates for ethanol production because of concern that they are helping drive up food costs.
In a study released this week, researchers at Purdue University in Indiana found that corn prices had risen to $4 a bushel, the highest in a decade, largely because of the higher prices farmers can demand from fuel producers.
"Three dollars was just because the price of oil went up and the market demanded more ethanol to substitute for gasoline," said Wallace E. Tyner, co-director of Purdue's Center for Global Trade Analysis.
David Summers, a biofuels researcher at Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla, said that while ethanol was cheaper to produce than pure gasoline because it is subsidized, vehicles may also get fewer miles to the gallon.
"It was the wonder fuel to get us out of trouble — and it won't," he said. When you add in its tendency to damage some engines, many mechanics and green fuel advocates are asking whether ethanol is worth it.
"There is no massive PR machine working to point out the downsides of ethanol, like there is on the other side," said Christa Westerberg, a lawyer in Stoughton, Wis., who has represented opponents of ethanol plants in Wisconsin.
Rick Kitchings, the mechanic in Georgia, said consumers simply should insist on pure gasoline for their small utility engines.
"Theoretically, avoid ethanol," he said. "Avoid ethanol."
Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/
chance3131
Extreme
The propaganda machine continues!
One way to tell it is BS is Farmers are not blaming ethanol for higher food prices, they know whats what. Ask these so called experts why disel fuel is piced higher than gasoline, and see what they tell you. Just so you know you need to refine diesel twice more to get gas. The reason it is hi is freight never slowed down when the price went way up, but gas consumption did. Thus they stick it to the transportation industry, and make them pay for it. In Iowa alone this year there was right at 138,000 acres of good quality crop land still in the Goverment paid set aside program. You never see the ethanol basher mention that this land put back into production could yeild 1,800,000 bushels of corn at a measley 130 bushel to the acre. Which if you don't know is piss poor corn growing in iowa. Everyone thought it was a great idea to have Uncle Sam pay farmers to not grow corn for years to get the surplus down, was helping the family farmer out. How about you pay them to grow corn and beans like they where raised to, and let the ethonal bashers find someone else to blame. maxdlx
It takes allot of fossil fuel to produce ethanol, so we are just chasing our tails by using food to produce fuel.
OPEC provides the fossil fuels, so no independence from them is accomplished in the end.
As far as the gov. paying farmers to set there land aside...that just shows how powerful the farm lobbyists are.
The gov. had a chance recently to modify the Ag. bill, but did nothing.
OPEC provides the fossil fuels, so no independence from them is accomplished in the end.
As far as the gov. paying farmers to set there land aside...that just shows how powerful the farm lobbyists are.
The gov. had a chance recently to modify the Ag. bill, but did nothing.
Here in SE WI we have a few stations (east troy) that still sell the NON ethanol blend, I am fortunate to live only a bout 7 miles from these stations.
I believe they carry the NON ethanol due to high demand from the public.
When I travel to the great north woods I see it is now almost impossible to find the NON ethanol fuels.
A statewide list of NON ethanol providers would be helpful to those of us who consider the ethanol blended fuel as inferior.
Does anyone know of such a list?
I believe they carry the NON ethanol due to high demand from the public.
When I travel to the great north woods I see it is now almost impossible to find the NON ethanol fuels.
A statewide list of NON ethanol providers would be helpful to those of us who consider the ethanol blended fuel as inferior.
Does anyone know of such a list?
Your lucky- here in NY all stations are mandated by the State to sell E10. We have no choice.
LazyBastard
TY 4 Stroke God
Wow, this debate is totally retarded.
Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is GOOD for gas. It *PREVENTS* fuel system rusting BECAUSE it dissolves water. It also prevents fuel systems from clogging up due to ICE CRYSTALS SUSPENDED IN THE FUEL and prevents engines (2-stroke mostly) from burning down due to lean mixture caused by sucking in WATER where water would otherwise displace fuel. Yes, it requires a different mixture ratio (jetting), but this is something that is understood and is part of routine maintenance.
When filling up the gas tank on a sled WHO HASN'T had some snow fall into the gas tank? Anybody? It happens to EVERYBODY. Where does that snow go? It goes to the fuel filter and possibly into the carb where it will restrict fuel flow.... unless you have ethyl alcohol mixed into your gas (aka gas line antifreeze) which allows the water to be dissolved into the fuel and safely burned through the engine at a very low concentration.
Now how about small engines... lawn mowers and such, possibly with metal gas tanks.... particularly the ones with vacuum feed carbs like older b&s "classic" engines. Get a little condensation and the water goes straight to the bottom of the tank where it stays forever (since the tube doesn't quite reach the bottom), causing the tank to rust and occasionally causing the engine to suck in water (at first), and then eventually chunks of rust. Add a little alcohol and the water will dissolve into the fuel and be safely burned through.
People should quit being paranoid about their fuels. If there is any increase in small engine failures it is NOT due to alcohol in the fuel, its due to the glut of SUPER CHEAP and POORLY MANUFACTURED small engines.... those Chinese knock-offs of Honda engines that sell for a quarter of the price for example.... The chinese small motor knock-off business is very recent and is highly tied in to the industrialization of china, which is also one of the main reasons why the price of fuel has gone up so far.
Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is GOOD for gas. It *PREVENTS* fuel system rusting BECAUSE it dissolves water. It also prevents fuel systems from clogging up due to ICE CRYSTALS SUSPENDED IN THE FUEL and prevents engines (2-stroke mostly) from burning down due to lean mixture caused by sucking in WATER where water would otherwise displace fuel. Yes, it requires a different mixture ratio (jetting), but this is something that is understood and is part of routine maintenance.
When filling up the gas tank on a sled WHO HASN'T had some snow fall into the gas tank? Anybody? It happens to EVERYBODY. Where does that snow go? It goes to the fuel filter and possibly into the carb where it will restrict fuel flow.... unless you have ethyl alcohol mixed into your gas (aka gas line antifreeze) which allows the water to be dissolved into the fuel and safely burned through the engine at a very low concentration.
Now how about small engines... lawn mowers and such, possibly with metal gas tanks.... particularly the ones with vacuum feed carbs like older b&s "classic" engines. Get a little condensation and the water goes straight to the bottom of the tank where it stays forever (since the tube doesn't quite reach the bottom), causing the tank to rust and occasionally causing the engine to suck in water (at first), and then eventually chunks of rust. Add a little alcohol and the water will dissolve into the fuel and be safely burned through.
People should quit being paranoid about their fuels. If there is any increase in small engine failures it is NOT due to alcohol in the fuel, its due to the glut of SUPER CHEAP and POORLY MANUFACTURED small engines.... those Chinese knock-offs of Honda engines that sell for a quarter of the price for example.... The chinese small motor knock-off business is very recent and is highly tied in to the industrialization of china, which is also one of the main reasons why the price of fuel has gone up so far.
yammiman
Expert
....Does anyone know of such a list?....
I think this might be a couple of years old, but here is a map of states with mandates and incentives - I think some of the incentive states have implemented mandates
http://www.mda.state.mi.us/renewablefue ... tesMap.pdf
corn based ethanol is a hoax and it is only going to get worse for a while - some states are already pushing for 20% mixtures by 2010 - alot of people will get rich but it will do very little if anything to curb our dependency on foriegn oil - in the mean time, we consumers get to put up with all of the negative effects of this junk in our gas tanks!!!
I think this might be a couple of years old, but here is a map of states with mandates and incentives - I think some of the incentive states have implemented mandates
http://www.mda.state.mi.us/renewablefue ... tesMap.pdf
corn based ethanol is a hoax and it is only going to get worse for a while - some states are already pushing for 20% mixtures by 2010 - alot of people will get rich but it will do very little if anything to curb our dependency on foriegn oil - in the mean time, we consumers get to put up with all of the negative effects of this junk in our gas tanks!!!
Which stations in East Troy still carry "The good stuff"?snoway said:
yammyman
Newbie
I have not asked my dealer yet, but the owners manual for my 08 Vector says that I ma not supposed to use fuel with more than 10% ethanol in it. What, if anything, will the dealer do so I can use gas with ethanol? Here in central Wisconsin it is hard to find gas without ethanol.
chance3131
Extreme
If there is a 20% mandate, would that mean we are using 20% less oil from a foreign country? Any little bit helps.
My hat is off to LB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for speaking nothing but the truth about the fuel issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
terret725
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
i work at a shop. we sell sleds, lawn mowers, weed whackers and chain saws.
IN MY PERSONAL EXSPERIANCE seance we have gone to 10% ethanol blend we have seen double the amount of dirty carbs and scuffed up chains saw, weed wacker, cut off saw, etc motors.
not to mention that now the 09 CFI polaris snowmobiles have a plug that has to be unpluged from each other if u are goin to run ethanol blend gas. if they are plugged together when u run ethanol blended gas it says motor failure WILL occur. not may but will. if that's not proof that the fuel is different then i dont know what is.
as for the chinese knock offs failing they do but i haven't seen them cylinder wise. ive seen husky 4 strokes with the HONDA motor scored to heck and less then a year old. and yes it had mixed gas in it.
am i saying ethanol is bad? no its good as long as the motor was designed to run on it but when u take a motor that designed to run on non blended gas and it doesn't have the ability to easy adjust fuel mixture it can cause problems. ethanol has a higher vapor point then gas. this causes a lean condition at lower temps.
IN MY PERSONAL EXSPERIANCE seance we have gone to 10% ethanol blend we have seen double the amount of dirty carbs and scuffed up chains saw, weed wacker, cut off saw, etc motors.
not to mention that now the 09 CFI polaris snowmobiles have a plug that has to be unpluged from each other if u are goin to run ethanol blend gas. if they are plugged together when u run ethanol blended gas it says motor failure WILL occur. not may but will. if that's not proof that the fuel is different then i dont know what is.
as for the chinese knock offs failing they do but i haven't seen them cylinder wise. ive seen husky 4 strokes with the HONDA motor scored to heck and less then a year old. and yes it had mixed gas in it.
am i saying ethanol is bad? no its good as long as the motor was designed to run on it but when u take a motor that designed to run on non blended gas and it doesn't have the ability to easy adjust fuel mixture it can cause problems. ethanol has a higher vapor point then gas. this causes a lean condition at lower temps.
yamadoo
Yamadoo is a snowmobile ' aholic'.
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Well said LB.
In mn we have had mandated 10% ethanol for years and motors run just fine, I have sleds, boats, weed wackers, chain saws, lawn mowers you name it. ALL the fuels are not as stable now so I use Seafoam in anything that is going to sit for > 3-4 wks.
Yamadoo
In mn we have had mandated 10% ethanol for years and motors run just fine, I have sleds, boats, weed wackers, chain saws, lawn mowers you name it. ALL the fuels are not as stable now so I use Seafoam in anything that is going to sit for > 3-4 wks.
Yamadoo
Eagle1
Expert
It's my understanding it takes more energy to make it than you get in return.chance3131 said:
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