AKrider
TY 4 Stroke God
Rx1M5 said:
RX-1M5,
I totally agree. Earlier this season I was checking out an Apex that was being prepped for ice racing and the steering hoop and post were out in the open. The Apex steering post was in the same spot as my Wildchild equipped Vector. If there is a difference I'd be interested in seeing it. I don't believe there is. That said, the Apex has way better factory ergos and runs a different rear skid. Those two factors could easily make it feel better than a converted DB1 chassis. Heck, the skid alone could do that. I believe the Apex runs a riser block that angles towards the rider. My post is almost straight up and down. I think that may be the reason the steering felt a bit unnatural on mine.
The nice thing about the kit is you can go back to stock if you choose. I know I won't. The bad thing about the kit is you need to notch your cowling. That is one thing that is irreversible.
The only thing I have noticed negative about the rider forward is trying to control the sled on any sort of trail. It is a monster. In the powder, it is awesome. Night an day difference from stock.
I have the stock Vector mtn riser with the angled bracket pointed to the front. I am thinking of flipping it back to move the bars a few inches to the rear, but I don't mind it to much this way.
I am going to have to try and figure out how to stop it fro m pusshing so bad in the corners.
By the way: How many of you ride with out the sway bar in? Is it a good idea to take it out for sidehilling and such?
I have the stock Vector mtn riser with the angled bracket pointed to the front. I am thinking of flipping it back to move the bars a few inches to the rear, but I don't mind it to much this way.
I am going to have to try and figure out how to stop it fro m pusshing so bad in the corners.
By the way: How many of you ride with out the sway bar in? Is it a good idea to take it out for sidehilling and such?
Rx1M5
VIP Member
AKrider said:
This is a fact, it is not even arguable. SO if it doesn't feel the same ask yourself WHY? The first and most obvious answer is the skid. I've talked about this before but everybody who is riding an RX with a 153 M7 skid has done a 4 1/2 inch pullback. Period. That's great if thats what you wanted but do you think it might affect the handling compared to an Apex? For sure it will because the 153 Cat skid has moved the pivot point on the rail back 4+ inches. If you want it closer to an Apex you need to run 162 track with an Apex skid or a 162 M7 skid or some genuine 162 length skid. Everybody grabbed up the 153 skids cause they bolt into the old Rx1 mounting holes but that was a poor reason for selecting that length. I run a 162 Cat skid with the Maverick which allows the skid to take way more weight off the noe of the sled. Sure you need to mount it farther forward but that's what the RX needs. Ask yourself this if a 153 skid in a 162 sled was the way to go why didn't they do it from the factory. Doo tried this back in 02.
Hypothetically in the extreme what would your sled handle like if you mounted the front arm say at the back under the exhaust. Well obviously it would handle like crap overlooking the point that it is impossible, so what I'm getting at here is that every change has an effect. Sure you can scab a bunch of parts together that you scored on the internet but you also need to look at how they will work and balance together.
Apex and Rx a arms are identical so maybe the skis affect it.
Look at the Apex riser and bar setup.
If you are a sit down rider then maybe it's not for you. I sit less than 10 % of the time. Take your sled out for a day and leave the seat at home.
So in summary all you guys your steering post location is not the problem. What you have done with the rider forward kit is put your steering post in the Apex position. End of discussion on that. If you want an Apex then look at your individual set ups and start noting where the differences are between your setups and the Apex and yes a properly setup rider forward RX is the same as an Apex, you can even figure that out riding it for 20 minutes.
Rx1M5
Frostbite
TY 4 Stroke God
RX1M5, could you please repeat what you said again; this time with feeling?
Yikes, I feel like I just got my hinny chewed!
Yet, it's hard to disagree with you.
Jonnyrocket and I both do more trail riding than we would like to and yes, on the trail (riding over a bunch of snowed over ATV tracks) the sled was a handful. Last year the handling was pretty good but tended to dart in certain snow conditions. I was going to put on a set of Studboy Deuce dual skags (this has worked on the short tracks) to try to mitigate the darting. Perhaps this would help with the rider forward mod as well?
Yes, I agree, the closer I get to Apex ergos the better the sled seems to feel. I need to get my buddy's sled over here and start measuring and try to replicate the Apex handle bar position.
I'm sure this is a worthwhile mod and that we'll figure out a fix to the strange steering phenomeneon.
Keep the ideas coming.
Frosty
Yikes, I feel like I just got my hinny chewed!
Yet, it's hard to disagree with you.
Jonnyrocket and I both do more trail riding than we would like to and yes, on the trail (riding over a bunch of snowed over ATV tracks) the sled was a handful. Last year the handling was pretty good but tended to dart in certain snow conditions. I was going to put on a set of Studboy Deuce dual skags (this has worked on the short tracks) to try to mitigate the darting. Perhaps this would help with the rider forward mod as well?
Yes, I agree, the closer I get to Apex ergos the better the sled seems to feel. I need to get my buddy's sled over here and start measuring and try to replicate the Apex handle bar position.
I'm sure this is a worthwhile mod and that we'll figure out a fix to the strange steering phenomeneon.
Keep the ideas coming.
Frosty
Rx1M5
VIP Member
I'm trying not to be rude here but both Kachess and myself have been telling everybody the same thing for a couple of seasons now, Kachess just seems to have the good sense not to jump into these threads anymore but believe it or not I really would like to see everybody happy with their sleds. Go back and re-read some of the old posts and you will see what I mean. Anyways enough on that.
The reason your sled darts more now is because you now have more ski pressure with your weight further forward. If you add dual runner skis it will probably dart more because it will be hooking up even harder in the front. When you had your weight back further on the sled the skis bounced off of all the minor undulations in the trail and the sled went straight, now they are grabbing due to the added pressure. What you want to be looking at is reducing the unsprung weight on the skis to help solve the darting this is where the skid comes in to play. You could let out your limiters a bit an crank up the front spring on the skid which will make it better on the trail but it will trench like a pig set up like that in the powder. The downside of reducing the front end sprung weight is it won't corner as well on the trail but if you want a good riding mountain sled the trail is the price you will pay. Plain and simple you really can't have it all. Go back to square 1 and make a list of the top 3 priorities you want out of your sled and work from there. For example my top priority is great boondocking ability. I couldn't give a rats a$$ how it handles on the trail because the trail is just a necessary evil to get to the goods. As a result my sled sucks on the trail but that's a compromise I'm happy to live with once I'm in the pow and standing up it is effortless.
By adding the rider forward kit you have taken a huge step towards making your sled a more powder friendly mountain sled not a trail sled. If you look at Yami's rider forward trail sleds you'll see that they have quite a few differences like the ski stance and the largest being the mono rear end. The rider forward portion is designed for long distance comfort but they had to come up with a new rear skid to adjust for the change. The Cat skid has never been a very good trail skid but they work well in the powder.
Now everybody go back to the drawing board and lets see your top 3 lists
Rx1M5
The reason your sled darts more now is because you now have more ski pressure with your weight further forward. If you add dual runner skis it will probably dart more because it will be hooking up even harder in the front. When you had your weight back further on the sled the skis bounced off of all the minor undulations in the trail and the sled went straight, now they are grabbing due to the added pressure. What you want to be looking at is reducing the unsprung weight on the skis to help solve the darting this is where the skid comes in to play. You could let out your limiters a bit an crank up the front spring on the skid which will make it better on the trail but it will trench like a pig set up like that in the powder. The downside of reducing the front end sprung weight is it won't corner as well on the trail but if you want a good riding mountain sled the trail is the price you will pay. Plain and simple you really can't have it all. Go back to square 1 and make a list of the top 3 priorities you want out of your sled and work from there. For example my top priority is great boondocking ability. I couldn't give a rats a$$ how it handles on the trail because the trail is just a necessary evil to get to the goods. As a result my sled sucks on the trail but that's a compromise I'm happy to live with once I'm in the pow and standing up it is effortless.
By adding the rider forward kit you have taken a huge step towards making your sled a more powder friendly mountain sled not a trail sled. If you look at Yami's rider forward trail sleds you'll see that they have quite a few differences like the ski stance and the largest being the mono rear end. The rider forward portion is designed for long distance comfort but they had to come up with a new rear skid to adjust for the change. The Cat skid has never been a very good trail skid but they work well in the powder.
Now everybody go back to the drawing board and lets see your top 3 lists
Rx1M5
doo_man
Expert
Seems to make sense, my RX-1 with an Apex Tunnel and Apex Skid/Maverick track and the rider forward felt perfect with the rider forward and 6" block riser (from Nytro). I didn't get any real trail time (just testing in field out back), as I returned the sled to stock to sell. But it felt real comfortable and didn't seem to change the steering, it just felt like it was "right"?
Frostbite
TY 4 Stroke God
Ok, RX1M5 I'll bite.
My top three priorities are:
#1. Boondocking 70%
#2. Trail Riding 15%
#3. Hill Climbing 15%
It's all about boondocking for me. Your info about moving the center of gravity forward with the hndle bar postion change makes sense. Yes, that would require more front track shock spring pressure and perhaps moving the limiter strap out a notch. Yes, this will increase the track approach angle a bit but what I want is a lively front end that is easy to lift with the throttle everytime I encounter an obstacle while boondocking and I may need to do that to get there.
Frosty
My top three priorities are:
#1. Boondocking 70%
#2. Trail Riding 15%
#3. Hill Climbing 15%
It's all about boondocking for me. Your info about moving the center of gravity forward with the hndle bar postion change makes sense. Yes, that would require more front track shock spring pressure and perhaps moving the limiter strap out a notch. Yes, this will increase the track approach angle a bit but what I want is a lively front end that is easy to lift with the throttle everytime I encounter an obstacle while boondocking and I may need to do that to get there.
Frosty
Rx1M5
VIP Member
Ok then if you want 70% boondocker really and truly then you won't have as nice trail manners but thats ok. IMO the best mod you could do would be to switch to 162 Cat rails and move the front arm forward in the tunnel. I can't remember what you've got for a track (I know you posted it but I can't remember) but assuming its a 162 the 162 rails will fit. They fit on a 162 Cat so they will fit on a 162 Yami as well. You do not use any Yamaha geometry at all essentially the sled becomes a Cat from the drivers back. What tunnel and extension etc is irrelevant all tunnels are basically the same despite what lots people will argue (I agree some are better than others but thats a different topic).
If you don't want to do that then the front skid shock must be set quite a bit stiffer in order for it to be able to carry the same weight (think about the sled as being a big lever and the front arm is the fulcrum point) as it can when it is further forward in the sled, now that the skid pullback is creating the additional leverage on the shock and spring. Letting out the limiter strap will work to a point but then you rail tips will begin to suffer. It doesn't seem like much but moving your entire body weight forward effectively 6" on the sled is a big change for the suspension to deal with. With a stiff front shock and soft rear torsion spring setting the sled will transfer more but all of this will be at the expense of climbing ability.
By switching the rails what happens is the front shock/spring can be set softer which allows it to collapse into the tunnel for climbing and still carry the weight for boondcking. Try cranking it up first and letting out the limiter cause that is free also it really helps the RX to gear it way down for boondocking (19x42) as well as having a low engagement on your clutching <4000 rpm. With the clutching set low like that my sled rarely ever burried itself.
I'd be inclined to get rid of the stock bars because the bend is not conducive to boondocking, you will be happier with less angle at the grips. A comparison I use is the rider forward is like riding a dirt bike and the stock RX ergos are like riding a quad. When I get on my dirt bike my body is in the same position as on my sled bars and all. I also hardly ever sit down on my bike.
Rx1M5
If you don't want to do that then the front skid shock must be set quite a bit stiffer in order for it to be able to carry the same weight (think about the sled as being a big lever and the front arm is the fulcrum point) as it can when it is further forward in the sled, now that the skid pullback is creating the additional leverage on the shock and spring. Letting out the limiter strap will work to a point but then you rail tips will begin to suffer. It doesn't seem like much but moving your entire body weight forward effectively 6" on the sled is a big change for the suspension to deal with. With a stiff front shock and soft rear torsion spring setting the sled will transfer more but all of this will be at the expense of climbing ability.
By switching the rails what happens is the front shock/spring can be set softer which allows it to collapse into the tunnel for climbing and still carry the weight for boondcking. Try cranking it up first and letting out the limiter cause that is free also it really helps the RX to gear it way down for boondocking (19x42) as well as having a low engagement on your clutching <4000 rpm. With the clutching set low like that my sled rarely ever burried itself.
I'd be inclined to get rid of the stock bars because the bend is not conducive to boondocking, you will be happier with less angle at the grips. A comparison I use is the rider forward is like riding a dirt bike and the stock RX ergos are like riding a quad. When I get on my dirt bike my body is in the same position as on my sled bars and all. I also hardly ever sit down on my bike.
Rx1M5
bdm
Expert
I am probably too inexperienced to know better but I got my first good 50 powder miles on Friday with the WC kit and think I am in love with the RX now.
Though the couple of times that I really felt like a pro, "breath" started playing in my head, and.....
I got stuck.
That ever happen to anyone else?
Though the couple of times that I really felt like a pro, "breath" started playing in my head, and.....
I got stuck.
That ever happen to anyone else?
freelheeler
Pro
frosty, get in touch with Nomad (rod) and see if he felt a difference between our sleds last week. i surely think i felt a difference between the rider forward with stock rx1 bars and 06 apex bars with 6" risers. he was working thru a jetting issue so i didn't get alot of time on his sled so i can't say for sure but it definitely felt different then mine. i was working thru issues as well mostly digging myself out, let him know i intended to 'park' his sled in the creek bed...
i was bale to pick up a couple sets of apex bars from the local dealership cheap let me know if you'd like to try it, also got my hand warmers working and really like the entire setup. you'll also notice kachess posts that they change the handle bars?? could it be that simple... i think it's possible. all i can really say is i never rode my rx1 with the stock setup and i don't have any intention of changing the setup it feels pretty sweet.
i think you're onto something with the sweep angle of the stock bars???
i was bale to pick up a couple sets of apex bars from the local dealership cheap let me know if you'd like to try it, also got my hand warmers working and really like the entire setup. you'll also notice kachess posts that they change the handle bars?? could it be that simple... i think it's possible. all i can really say is i never rode my rx1 with the stock setup and i don't have any intention of changing the setup it feels pretty sweet.
i think you're onto something with the sweep angle of the stock bars???
Frostbite
TY 4 Stroke God
Freewheeler, you bet! I'd love to try a set of Apex bars and riser. I agree it may be that simple. I'll send you a PM.
RX1M5, thanks again for explaining the dilema more clearly.
I tried to drop my limiter straps but they are all the way out now. It looks like I could possibly get another 1/2" of drop if drill a couple new holes. I did turn up the spring pressure on my front track shock about two turns on my Zero Pro. Honestly, I think I like the cushy ride of the stock Ryde FX shocks better for ride quality. I have to wonder what the rough choppy ride of Zero Pros is doing to my sled's powder prowness? My rear springs are as loose as they go on the triangular block.
Frosty
RX1M5, thanks again for explaining the dilema more clearly.
I tried to drop my limiter straps but they are all the way out now. It looks like I could possibly get another 1/2" of drop if drill a couple new holes. I did turn up the spring pressure on my front track shock about two turns on my Zero Pro. Honestly, I think I like the cushy ride of the stock Ryde FX shocks better for ride quality. I have to wonder what the rough choppy ride of Zero Pros is doing to my sled's powder prowness? My rear springs are as loose as they go on the triangular block.
Frosty
Powder Nomad
Veteran
Parking it in the creek?
Joe's being too kind to me, he should say "Nomad's sled ran so utterly crappy that it only went downhill, and seeing as how the creek bed was the lowest point around, that's where I ended up"
So, a few good points made above, and in all honesty, I'd made so many changes to my sled, that I'd pseudo forgotten (okay, completely forgotten) about the changes from the M7 skid w/ 153" rails/162" track. It is exactly like when a buddy of mine did a drop/roll on his 800 RMK... was like a 2" drop and a 4" roll, well, that pushed back that rear point of contact, 4", and dramatically changed the handling of the sled. Yep, it improved powder performance w/ the much shallower approach angle, but did change the handling of it.
I think some of what at least I'm experiencing is related to that. re: trail performance, I think having the PPD XMT skis (very aggressive w/ the 3 carbides) helps overcome some of that, as mine overall feels pretty good on the trail. Turns in a longer radius now which I at first attributed to the WC 'stops' being set different, but now realize it's just a function of the longer 'wheelbase'.
I do think the Apex bars on Joe's sled felt a wee bit better than mine, but is really hard to say for certain, as I was mostly focused on trying to find Joe and my sled.
BTW, despite the impacts to handling from the M7 skid in stock holes, I do think it greatly helped the flotation/climbing ability of the sled. I'm still working out some jetting issues, but when it's running well, it climbs like a beast (essentially am dead-even w/ a lightened up/piped 900 RMK, which theoretically has 25-30 hp on me). For me, the tradeoff is worth it, and will stick w/ the skid setup.
Rod
Joe's being too kind to me, he should say "Nomad's sled ran so utterly crappy that it only went downhill, and seeing as how the creek bed was the lowest point around, that's where I ended up"
So, a few good points made above, and in all honesty, I'd made so many changes to my sled, that I'd pseudo forgotten (okay, completely forgotten) about the changes from the M7 skid w/ 153" rails/162" track. It is exactly like when a buddy of mine did a drop/roll on his 800 RMK... was like a 2" drop and a 4" roll, well, that pushed back that rear point of contact, 4", and dramatically changed the handling of the sled. Yep, it improved powder performance w/ the much shallower approach angle, but did change the handling of it.
I think some of what at least I'm experiencing is related to that. re: trail performance, I think having the PPD XMT skis (very aggressive w/ the 3 carbides) helps overcome some of that, as mine overall feels pretty good on the trail. Turns in a longer radius now which I at first attributed to the WC 'stops' being set different, but now realize it's just a function of the longer 'wheelbase'.
I do think the Apex bars on Joe's sled felt a wee bit better than mine, but is really hard to say for certain, as I was mostly focused on trying to find Joe and my sled.
BTW, despite the impacts to handling from the M7 skid in stock holes, I do think it greatly helped the flotation/climbing ability of the sled. I'm still working out some jetting issues, but when it's running well, it climbs like a beast (essentially am dead-even w/ a lightened up/piped 900 RMK, which theoretically has 25-30 hp on me). For me, the tradeoff is worth it, and will stick w/ the skid setup.
Rod
Frostbite
TY 4 Stroke God
Thanks for the report Rod. I agree the benefits outweight the detriments.
Like I said earlier, I can already feel a huge difference just by straightening out my pivoting bar riser. Now, I were to use some straighter bars in addition to an Apex riser I may be in love?
Frosty
PS: Do all you guys with the M7 skids have you front limiter straps all the way out too? I'd almost like a little more length.
Like I said earlier, I can already feel a huge difference just by straightening out my pivoting bar riser. Now, I were to use some straighter bars in addition to an Apex riser I may be in love?
Frosty
PS: Do all you guys with the M7 skids have you front limiter straps all the way out too? I'd almost like a little more length.
SoCoRX1
TY 4 Stroke Guru
Frostbite said:
No they are tight when on the trailer. Would letting them out help?
Frostbite
TY 4 Stroke God
Maybe...................
The front of the track is basically the pivot (balance) point for the sled. If your limiter straps are out too far your sled will be all over the trail as you're trying to control the sled with the feeling of a bowling ball under the front track shock.
The good things of having your straps longer are:
Your sled should transfer weight a bit better.
The sled should be easier to throttle over logs while boondocking.
Your track will try to claw its way on top of the snow instead of merely climbing on top of the snow.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bad things of having your straps longer are:
Your track approach angle will be increased slighty.
The sled could feel tippy on the trail.
I'm sure there are many more good and bad things shortening of lengthening the limiter straps do.
Frosty
The front of the track is basically the pivot (balance) point for the sled. If your limiter straps are out too far your sled will be all over the trail as you're trying to control the sled with the feeling of a bowling ball under the front track shock.
The good things of having your straps longer are:
Your sled should transfer weight a bit better.
The sled should be easier to throttle over logs while boondocking.
Your track will try to claw its way on top of the snow instead of merely climbing on top of the snow.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bad things of having your straps longer are:
Your track approach angle will be increased slighty.
The sled could feel tippy on the trail.
I'm sure there are many more good and bad things shortening of lengthening the limiter straps do.
Frosty
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