Having Overheating Problems??? I'll Bet You This is Why!

[SuperStroker!]

I just put in my water wetter.. If you read the label on the bottle it says that on a dyno test..

50/50 mix.. temp was 212degrees
just water... temp was 210 degrees
50/50 mix with waterwetter temp was 204
just water and waterwetter temp was 192


SO realistically runing this stuff in a sled could only make a 8 degree difference because you run a 50/50mix..

In ONLY a racing enviroment could you see a 20degree drop in temp.. where you would not run any antifreeze..

Welter, 8 degrees of heat loss under the same test conditions is INCREDIBLE! Do you realize how much thermal energy needs to be exchanged to drop coolant temps that much, under steady state conditions?

Try to look at this a different way. You don't start with a "heat soaked" cooling system, you end up with that when you seize your engine! In our case, turn the warning light on.

In a previous explaination, I talked about "the enviornment" and how it changes constantly.

The enviornment is the medium that allows heat to be transfered away from the exhangers, to snow, air or liquid. If the enviornment is the same temp as the coolant, no heat will exchange.

Luckily, this is not the case. So try to look at it this way.

If you provide a gross loss in coolant temp equal to 8 BTUs is quite substantial. What this means is the heat energy input from the engine, must be exponentially higher to ever reach steady state (because of the changing enviornment and non-steady state level of heat loss in BTUs)
to ever reach the piont where the warning light will turn on.

So it's energy input minus total heat loss over time. It is not constant.

Make any sense?

Smokeless1, thanks for the understanding and kind words, I was loosing my confidence.

 

[IFsledder]

First off, this topic has been very interesting to read about. Thanks for the info SS. Tork, great job stepping in and making some great "clarification" points. For the record I own an SRX and haven't had any heating issues. I do have a small car that I will be trying the water wetter product in. It's not a big problem but when it's a hot day out here in California it likes to run a little hotter than I like to see.

One last question for anyone who knows the answer.

As you increase the antifreeze / water ration from 50/50, the freezing point of the liquid goes down. So 60/40 freezes at a lower (safer) temp than 50/50. At what ratio does this turn around so further increasing the antifreeze/water ratio actually causes the freezing point to start getting higher?
Last year I was wondering this and I don't believe the jug of antifreeze I had showed ratios over 70/30 on the table on the jug.

Happy sledding!

 

[IFsledder]

Oh yeah, where have you guys been buying this water wetter product at?

nhrxrider, I also meant to comment on your post. HOLY SHNIKIES! The coolant tested to be good to -30 and it froze at around zero! That is scary to say the least. I would almost think if he could make a lawsuit out of that one. Has anybody else ever heard of a situation like that?

 

[Sasquatch]

Oh yeah, where have you guys been buying this water wetter product at?

nhrxrider, I also meant to comment on your post. HOLY SHNIKIES! The coolant tested to be good to -30 and it froze at around zero! That is scary to say the least. I would almost think if he could make a lawsuit out of that one. Has anybody else ever heard of a situation like that?

Ya something is funny there I have used 50 50 in -40 weather without problems. 50 50 will not freeze at 0. I'm wondering if it wasn't mixed properly.

Worst thing you can do with a vehicle is start it up and drive away. -80 wind chill can and will freeze your rad. With a 50 50 mix plugged in you let it warm up then drive. I test for -40 and mix it to get that rating.

You can put 50 50 mix outside at -40 and you might get a few crystals but you will never freeze and bust anything. I'm thinking the leak is because of a bad head gasket and started because the steel was cold and shrank enought to let some past.

If the car was not run just drained and filled there could have been a pocket of pure water in the rad or motor that worked its way to the top of rad.

 

[grader]

wind chill has no effect on anti freeze or metal. if it did, no one would be able to drive in cold weather. think of the 'wind chill' driving your car at 60 mph. into a 30mph headwind at -40. wind chill has to do with heat loss from living things. as an experiment, attach a thermometer on your outside car mirror and take a ride. the temp stays the same regardless of speed. (unless you drive down south where it actually is warmer).

 

[smokeless1]

In 90% of the places snowmobiles will be used, 50/50 is NOT enough antifreeze. Go 60/40 for protection. We are not even into official "Winter" and my thermometer is reading -25. Where my wife works, their official weather station read -22 in the early evening.

Rider-

I have to tell you that I don't doubt you, but I am skeptical that what puddled the antifreeze under your friends race car was caused by the expansion of ice crystals in a antifreeze solution. Clearly there are lots of other things that could have caused the leak and perhaps the cold simply made this shrinkage the culprit.

Almost (but perhaps not all) antifreeze is "over stated" in what coverage it will protect your engine.

Please take some time to try a simple test which I have done many years ago.

Take a glass jar, miracle whip etc, and fill it with 40% antifreeze and 60% water. Fill it to the very top. Use any jar with a tight fitting lid. Now shake it up and put it in the coldest place you know of.

Look at it from time to time, especially during this cold snap. You will find that tho it can form some ice crystals, there is not enough ice crystal formation to expand the fluid to burst the jar. Glass conducts cold well.

This is like your engine.

Many years ago, folks simply used alcohol and water in the radiators and got by pretty well in those days, tho occassionally the alcohol would evaporate and the mix would not be sufficient and on extremely cold days they would boil over from frozen radiator.

But the truth is that as long as the coolant stays liquid, then it works. But here is the most important part:

The more water you can use and still be protected the BETTER your cooling system will work, because water cools far better than the antifreeze material.

This is why some folks including me, who had overheat issues were "steamed" to find out that somebody at Yamaha doesn't understand that water is required to cool an engine and that using more antifreeze than is needed is worse. Far worse.

Now you can go along with using a poor conductor of heat transfer if you want to and you can go back to the fundimental discussion of thermodynamics that the fellow has kindly put in words for all to understand, but by doing this you are CONSTANTLY causing poor heat transfer and thus needlessly putting your expensive engine in a heat range that cannot do it any good, and likely will be shortening the life of that engine. For some who peddle the sleds early, this is not important and screw the dealer or poor fellow who get your used equipment. And dealers get well paid to fix those engines after they get overheated and shortened lives.

I intend to use only that which is necessary to keep her from freezing up. I don't intend to run her any hotter than I have to, which is why I changed the antifreeze to a 50 / 50 mix, which is all I have run in my car engines for years and years. I have never had a problem with doing that even to static -34 below zero in cars that run 70mph down the freeway causing windchill of -100.

More is not always better, and in fact in this case more is actually worse.

But again you decide. If it makes you feel good, then do it. But it is not sound maint. decision. And if your sled is like mine, with marginal heat transfer engineered into it, then this point is even more important.

I can think of lots of places where more is better, but this ain't one of them.

 

[Trxster]

It sounds a bit off to me as well. As I mentioned earlier, I lived in fairbanks, AK, the frozen capital of the world and we mixed at about 60%-65% coolant and we had weather so cold it could pull your tire off of your rim (it happened to me at -70). Only problem I ever had with coolant was when I got some on bare skin at -40 and that stuff holds it's cold as well as it holds it's hot. Froze my skin pretty good. Won't make that mistake again.

Everyone rides in different areas. I ride in WA now where most of our riding temps are +20 to +40 so I don't need to be anywhere near that and the sled is stored at sea level. If I still lived in squarbanks, I would have a higher ratio...probably a battery heater, block heater, and oil pan heater as well. Oh thank god I live in beautiful Anacortes, WA.

T

 

[nhrxrider]

I'm not saying everyone needs this kind of protection, just think about the temps where you live and err on the cautious side. And as for that statement a couple of you made about pure water cooling better, yes, that is true, in certain example; but in a cooling system there are other things to think about. Look way back about my post where I quoted facts from an automotive training manual. You NEED coolant (notice the proper word for anti-freeze...now think about what that means) even in hot weather. It reduces the boiling point of the water so that it won't boil in your engine. I gave examples of the temps different mixtures boil at.

I've been in the automotive business for years. My wife and I even own our own business now. I'm an ASE certified Master Engine Machinist, and I have 6 other ASE certifications...2 away from becoming a Master Tech, which I'll be taking as soon as I have time (hopefully for the spring tests). I also have a degree in Automotive Technology. I've worked at a dealership and an independent repair shop. I know about testing coolant, mixing coolant, and have seen my share of frozen engines. But what do I know. And yes, my friend drained the engine completely, mixed the coolant before putting it in, then ran the engine while filling. Hes also been around the working end of wrenches his whole life.

Coolant, in reality, isn't a perfect mixing agent. There can be some seperation in the cooling system if it sits long enough. Not a lot, but a little. You need to be prepared for the mixture to be strong enough so that when it starts to seperate you will still be protected, and not end up with pockets of slush (working on becoming ice). This won't affect people who ride all the time, but if you ever have to leave your sled for a couple weeks at very cold temps, you might find out the hard way. Life isn't perfect, and neither is coolant...I'm just saying to be prepared. Some of you don't believe me, or have your own beliefs, or whatever, and thats fine...I think I made my point, and I won't waste any more bandwidth repeating myself. Decide for yourselves what your engine is worth. Personally, I'd rather see the overheat light come on and be able to shut the sled down, than to find out my engine was a block of ice some very cold night. And if you look at my earlier post about the temps, then you'll see that you are indeed protected even in hot temps with the proper mixture, because it RAISES the boiling point, along with lowering the freezing point.

Oh, and the actual low temp here on my hill last night was about -33. I'm glad I wasn't protected to -30.

And to answer a good question...about the highest concentration of coolant that is reccomended is 70/30. Most usually stick with 60/40 though. The original post was to warn people that your system could actually have more than a 70/30 mixture, possible straight coolant. This is bad also...as was mention above several times. The coolant is too thick to flow properly, so cooling is reduced. Its also very acidic with a concentration that high. It will eat away at aluminum parts.

Jim

 

[smokeless1]

NH-

Nobody disputes you should have enough coolant to keep the engine block from freezing up. We agree on that. And we all agree that anti freeze lubricates the water pump, prevents corosion, and increases the boiling point and lowers the freezing point. These are given. What is established here is that you should NOT use anymore anti freeze than you actually need to do to prevent block ice freeze up in your engine. Ice crystalization under cold enough conditions will occur straight from the hot engine after passing thru the radiator, or heat exchanger if it is cold enough. But expansion of ice or lack of flow are the ingrediants of disaster for the combustion engine. Ice crystals don't break anything because there is no strength to ice crystals. Further, since the more anti-freeze you put in that snomo to keep it from freezing up, the WORSE it transfers heat away, the least amount you can use and be "protected" is where you want to go. Now under normal circumstances, there is plenty of exchanger to get this job done, so that even if you "over do" the antifreeze portion, it won't do much harm. But fact is these RX machines are short on transfer capabilities, and that this defective design raises the possibility that you could be reducing the life of the engine by putting too much antifreeze in and thus the wicking of heat away at the engine head keeping the area around the heads hotter than wanted. Be careful about this part. This is one of the reasons why the manufacturer developed added heat exchanger. More surface exchange area. Finally, just for your own learning processes, take some of that antifeeze mix it up and put it in a jar and set it out in that -30 degee stuff. You should find that the fluid stays fluid, even if you put 1/2 the recommended percentage of antifreeze in the solution. And there is two reasons for this. One is the warrantee the antifreeze maker puts on it's product to "guarantee" to a specific temp, making sure it is good under all condtions, as they do not want to be paying for too many old radiators, and the second is to sell lots of antifreeze to those who want to subscribe to the "more is better' crowd, and "if some is enough, better put more because I feel better doing it" crowd. Just remember that antifreeze is a poor transferrer of heat. Once you have enough, especially with marginal heat exchanger, then stop there and remember that you improve the wicking of heat away better by stopping at what is necessary, but only what is necessary. Farmers used to bore into big rocks pour water in and let the cold crack the rock. It worked great, but since antifreeze will mix in solution pretty well, most of the time we are using way way way more antifreeze than most need use to accomplish rock hard freeze up. Do the test.

 

[NY_Nytro]

I check the coolant in my new Warrior and it is 100% ethylene glycol or very darn close. The manual states 60/40 but this for sure no where near that ratio.

Is there an easy way to drain some out to add distalled water ???