SuperStroker!
Pro
A heat exchanger is a heat exchanger! Doesn't matter if its a car radiator or a snowmobile running board aluminum extrusion. Yes, an aluminum extrusion is not as efficient as a radiator but the heat is transfered in the same way. This fact makes my points consistent with cars or snowmobiles, tractors or liquid cooled model planes.
IMPROVE NEUCLEATE BOILING, IMPROVE THE AVERAGE NUMBER VOLUME OF BTUs TRANSFERED TO THE LIQUID and its like adding extra inches of heat exchanger (without actually doing so)
Just try it, hell it cant hurt anything and see for yourself.
All I'm saying is it has proven to work excellent for me in both racing sleds and trail sleds, especially my trail sled.
I'm just trying to pass on some good info that I have found works.
Thats all.
IMPROVE NEUCLEATE BOILING, IMPROVE THE AVERAGE NUMBER VOLUME OF BTUs TRANSFERED TO THE LIQUID and its like adding extra inches of heat exchanger (without actually doing so)
Just try it, hell it cant hurt anything and see for yourself.
All I'm saying is it has proven to work excellent for me in both racing sleds and trail sleds, especially my trail sled.
I'm just trying to pass on some good info that I have found works.
Thats all.
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
I thank SuperStroker for posting this info, as it is a reminder that over a 60/40 mixture you lose big time in freeze protection and thermal conductivity.
However, overheating is a big topic around here. One has to assume that the factory uses somewhere between 50/50 and 60/40 (prolly 60/40 as they want the best freeze protection). Guys that have never uncorked their systems have had their lights come on and the most effective way to fix it is the rear heat exchanger. Because of that to say "I'll bet" puts you in for an arguement Ha Ha.
All that said, stated in a different manner, this info is very good and should be valid reminder to all of us as to the best thermal conductivity
AND freeze protection.
However, overheating is a big topic around here. One has to assume that the factory uses somewhere between 50/50 and 60/40 (prolly 60/40 as they want the best freeze protection). Guys that have never uncorked their systems have had their lights come on and the most effective way to fix it is the rear heat exchanger. Because of that to say "I'll bet" puts you in for an arguement Ha Ha.
All that said, stated in a different manner, this info is very good and should be valid reminder to all of us as to the best thermal conductivity
AND freeze protection.
Mighty
TY 4 Stroke God
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I can't believe Yamaha screwed up this bad. Why design and build a new Rear Heat Exchanger when they could have simply shipped everybody a bottle of Water Wetter and saved countless thousands of dollars............
gnip134
Expert
The question is.......if it was just a mixture issue, why has Yamaha spent time on developing a rear cooler to fit on the MTN. sleds and Warriors that have had cooling issues?
And now, why is that cooler showing up stock on the '05 Mountain sled?
I'm sure we will see a rear cooler on the '06 Warrior and Rage, and those smaller coolers on the the RX-1's and Vectors.
The bottom line is.....Yamaha has made a small miscalculation, and is fixing it.
I am very glad I came across this post though, as I was one of those people that just would dump in straight antifreeze in when i needed to add. I will now mix for sure.........very, very helpful!
And now, why is that cooler showing up stock on the '05 Mountain sled?
I'm sure we will see a rear cooler on the '06 Warrior and Rage, and those smaller coolers on the the RX-1's and Vectors.
The bottom line is.....Yamaha has made a small miscalculation, and is fixing it.
I am very glad I came across this post though, as I was one of those people that just would dump in straight antifreeze in when i needed to add. I will now mix for sure.........very, very helpful!
SuperStroker!
Pro
Never said it was just a mixture issue, just a suggestion that might explain why two Rxs riding on the same day at the same time, under the same conditions one shows the light and the other may not.
Each case of overheating is different. Some ride in the mountains and are hard on the throttle pushing deep snow and others are riding groomed trails and plowed roads. I suggested this for a guy like WelterRacer, since he rarely sees his light come on...this might in fact be all he needs to get the small increase in efficiency he needs to keep the light from showing. Some cases will need an additional rear exchanger, others it will just be a waste of money.
I will say this, regardless of how many heat exchangers you add, ANYTHING THAT CAN IMPROVE neucleate boiling will allow a tuner to build in more ignition timing, run hotter fuels etc., and HELP TO minimize localized heating.
The reason for this is that heat will not transfer from a metal surface without a neucleate gas layer. A surfactant/softener like water wetter will help in these situations as well and more water and less Glycol will also help.
Ok?
Each case of overheating is different. Some ride in the mountains and are hard on the throttle pushing deep snow and others are riding groomed trails and plowed roads. I suggested this for a guy like WelterRacer, since he rarely sees his light come on...this might in fact be all he needs to get the small increase in efficiency he needs to keep the light from showing. Some cases will need an additional rear exchanger, others it will just be a waste of money.
I will say this, regardless of how many heat exchangers you add, ANYTHING THAT CAN IMPROVE neucleate boiling will allow a tuner to build in more ignition timing, run hotter fuels etc., and HELP TO minimize localized heating.
The reason for this is that heat will not transfer from a metal surface without a neucleate gas layer. A surfactant/softener like water wetter will help in these situations as well and more water and less Glycol will also help.
Ok?
SuperStroker!
Pro
Lazy, not missing the point...I understand what you are saying and I agree with you in many cases but I believed you cannot grasp the fluid/thermodynamics I am trying to explain.
Thats ok, lets agree to disagree on some level but my info is not wrong, but I did overstate in the title of this thread!
Should have read
Over Heating? This may help improve the situation.
Reasonable?
Thats ok, lets agree to disagree on some level but my info is not wrong, but I did overstate in the title of this thread!
Should have read
Over Heating? This may help improve the situation.
Reasonable?
LazyBastard
TY 4 Stroke God
I understand *exactly* what you are saying, and I do realize that it would be very valuable in some circumstances.
Where it is more applicable is in conditions where there is limited coolant to motor and coolant to heat exchanger/radiator surface area. Places where there isn't enough area to transfer as much heat as is being produced by the engine.
What you are suggesting may actually slightly lower the engine temperature, BUT, it will raise the coolant temperature, which will cause the overheat light to come on EVEN SOONER.
The light comes on as an ADVANCED warning - it is actually triggered by temperatures that are NOT overheat. If you change the temperature differential between the block and the water, that early warning device will start coming on at NORMAL OPERATING TEMPERATURES, unless you do what is REALLY needed and find some way to get that heat out of the water.
Where it is more applicable is in conditions where there is limited coolant to motor and coolant to heat exchanger/radiator surface area. Places where there isn't enough area to transfer as much heat as is being produced by the engine.
What you are suggesting may actually slightly lower the engine temperature, BUT, it will raise the coolant temperature, which will cause the overheat light to come on EVEN SOONER.
The light comes on as an ADVANCED warning - it is actually triggered by temperatures that are NOT overheat. If you change the temperature differential between the block and the water, that early warning device will start coming on at NORMAL OPERATING TEMPERATURES, unless you do what is REALLY needed and find some way to get that heat out of the water.
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
SuperStroker! said:
Perfect, now lets go hit the trail and LOL about it tonight over a couple of beers
SuperStroker!
Pro
Like I said early in the post, I don't believe the exchangers are already saturated with heat and if they can become saturated, it will take longer and require more thermo-energy to do so. BTUs of thermo-energy over unit time.
I still believe that better heat transfer will help to keep the coolant temps low with the same surface area of exchanger, since they start out cold and do not begin as a heat saturated mass of metal.
The more efficient the transfer of heat fom the source, into the liquid and to the metal of the heat exchanger, the less efficient the enviornment will need to be in order release that heat to that envoirnment.
The metal, when exposed on the inside, to a heat transfer surfactant that is more efficient, will transfer more BTUs of thermo-energy per unit time, all else equal.
Do you understand?
I still believe that better heat transfer will help to keep the coolant temps low with the same surface area of exchanger, since they start out cold and do not begin as a heat saturated mass of metal.
The more efficient the transfer of heat fom the source, into the liquid and to the metal of the heat exchanger, the less efficient the enviornment will need to be in order release that heat to that envoirnment.
The metal, when exposed on the inside, to a heat transfer surfactant that is more efficient, will transfer more BTUs of thermo-energy per unit time, all else equal.
Do you understand?
SuperStroker!
Pro
Another way to explain this...
If you have a known volume of heat energy to remove and you calculate the surface area needed to remove that volume of heat, YOU ALSO NEED TO KNOW THE CHEMISTRY of the heat transfer fluid! There is a book called the handbook of chemistry and physics that actually list the thermo-efficiency of different liquids and you must use this in order to size the exchanger correctly.
Suffice to say, you will need 25-30% less exchanger surface area to remove your known volume of heat energy (BTUs) if you use pure water vs pure Glycol, for example. That is what the table I provided above teaches us.
The proper selection of heat transfer fluid will allow engineers to reduce the surface area of a heat exchanger (make it smaller) and remove the same amount of heat.
Is this any clearer?
If you have a known volume of heat energy to remove and you calculate the surface area needed to remove that volume of heat, YOU ALSO NEED TO KNOW THE CHEMISTRY of the heat transfer fluid! There is a book called the handbook of chemistry and physics that actually list the thermo-efficiency of different liquids and you must use this in order to size the exchanger correctly.
Suffice to say, you will need 25-30% less exchanger surface area to remove your known volume of heat energy (BTUs) if you use pure water vs pure Glycol, for example. That is what the table I provided above teaches us.
The proper selection of heat transfer fluid will allow engineers to reduce the surface area of a heat exchanger (make it smaller) and remove the same amount of heat.
Is this any clearer?
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
Take 2 electric oven ranges.
Run 18ga wire to one and 10ga wire to the second.
Put thermostats on both sets of wiring.
The 10 ga will be cooler and those coils will be able to exchange more heat.
This fits pretty well I think because conductivity is conductivity.
Run 18ga wire to one and 10ga wire to the second.
Put thermostats on both sets of wiring.
The 10 ga will be cooler and those coils will be able to exchange more heat.
This fits pretty well I think because conductivity is conductivity.
peteracing
Expert
Lazy is wright, 1st. you must know that ANTIFREEZE is also raising boilling
point! 2nd. have-you ever touched exchangers on a HOT rx-1 or viper?
if thermal conductivity of coolant is not good then why did you remove
your hand so fast? . I do agree that coolant mix should be near 60/40
because water is a better transfer medium. I would rather add an exchanger then changing a cyl. block cau's it froze open....
point! 2nd. have-you ever touched exchangers on a HOT rx-1 or viper?
if thermal conductivity of coolant is not good then why did you remove
your hand so fast? . I do agree that coolant mix should be near 60/40
because water is a better transfer medium. I would rather add an exchanger then changing a cyl. block cau's it froze open....
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
Hold on gents,
Nobody ever suggested you drop below 50% unless you ar grass racing. The point is that some people add straight antifreeze.
If you go above 60% you are in fact losing freeze protection and needlessly giving up thermal conductivity.
It is a very valid point and I hope it does not get lost in all the confusion.
Nobody ever suggested you drop below 50% unless you ar grass racing. The point is that some people add straight antifreeze.
If you go above 60% you are in fact losing freeze protection and needlessly giving up thermal conductivity.
It is a very valid point and I hope it does not get lost in all the confusion.
