Modular helmets & crashes

[Tinman1944]

Snell approved helmets may or may not be better, but I dought that any NASCAR drivers are wearing a helmet not certified as Snell approved. For my head I want the best protection I can buy, price is not the prime factor. And certainly just the snell rating on it's own is not the only factor in choosing a helmet. The materials and the manufacturer are also important, but do not tell me a $20 helmet I can buy at K Mart that is DOT approved is better protection than an HJC or Scorpion snell approved helmet. Have fun out there and I hope you never have to test your helmet to the Max. Good Sledding to all.

 

[Tork]

I'm not sure that helmets meeting Snell standards aren't MORE dangerous for snowmobilers because of the very liner stiffness that Snell uses to convince you those helmets are better.

Honestly, no way do I think snell is worse. I just dont think after a lot of study they are necessarily better.

One problem is that a snell test uses an orange sized ball and a helmet must withstand 2 hits in the exact same place. Crash investigators say that accidents almost never involve 2 helmet hits in the same exact spot.
That is why the liners are stiffer, you cant use all of the crush zone of the liner in one impact because you have to save part of it for the 2nd impact.

 

[rightarm]

 

[rightarm]

04/05/06

A 140MPH GET-OFF & TAKING OUT A SIGNPOST WITH HIS HEAD!

Dear Arai Helmets:

I want to express my gratitude for the fine product you make and the way one of your helmets served me in an accident.

I was riding westbound on 1-20 near Weatherford, TX at what eyewitnesses later said was about 140mph on my CBR600RR when the accident happened. I don't remember the accident or, in fact, most of that day. However, I know I took out a street sign with my Arai helmeted head and also took out a guard rail which indicates the force of the impact.

Most of my ribs on the left side were broken as was my sternum. My lungs were bruised. My leg was broken in eight places and my back was broken. There was no injury to my head or brain thanks to my Arai helmet. I was a paramedic for six years and attended too many crashed motorcyclists and had seen first hand the difference a quality helmet can make in the after accident outcome. That is why I bought the Arai just two weeks before my accident.

The responding trooper had taken the helmet to use in safety lectures. When I asked my mother to get the helmet for me she contacted him. He was amazed that I had survived and returned the helmet so that I could use it in my own lectures on safety. My body was so damaged that the hospital gave me only a ten percent chance of recovering. But I did and my head and brain are just fine and I've returned to full time work. I've sent a series of photos of the helmet so that you can see how good a job it did for me.

Thanks again Arai, Gary Blanton / Fort Worth TX

 

[rightarm]

Over 50 years devoted solely to the art and science of designing and building the best helmets humanly possible. An Arai helmet is not the product of compromise, of a "profit" point, or a board of directors. An Arai helmet is the product of obsession, an ongoing obsession. One small result of this is that Arai helmets have actually been exhibited in art museums as examples of design innovations - innovations that have been copied by other manufacturer's for years.

Every Arai helmet is virtually 100% handmade. Each craftsman signs the helmet shell along the way. And every helmet is hand inspected at least three times during construction. Not every hundredth helmet, or every tenth one — every single helmet.Arai's quality reaches the world's highest level of motorsports competition. In 2006/07 alone, Arai is the helmet of choice for both the MotoGP World Motorcycle champion, Nicky Hayden, and the Formula 1 World Auto-racing champion, Fernando Alonso. And it wasn't a fluke: all four U.S. MotoGP riders choose Arai along with more than half the drivers on the F1 grid. Sebastien Bourdais won another Champ Car championship in 2006 in a series that practically ³guaranteed² an Arai championship: all of the top-five championship drivers wear Arai. In NASCAR®, there's Jeff Gordon, Jeff Burton, Mark Martin, Greg Biffle, and Jamie McMurray. On two wheels, please check our racing page on the site here to see how completely Arai dominated professional motorcycle racing in the U.S., starting with Davi Millsaps' AMA Supercross Lites East championship, Kenny Coolbeth's AMA GNC National Dirt Track Championship and Jake Johnson's AMA National Dirt Track Single's crown. All in all, not bad for such a small helmet company, is it? But maybe not so surprising when you know everything that goes into the design and creation of a single Arai helmet. Including yours.

The first helmet company to offer a full 5-Year Limited Warranty - 14 years ago! Only recently have a couple others extended their warranties past one year. (How many cheaper helmets can you go through in the lifespan of a 5-year warranted Arai?)

 

[BigMac]

I'm not sure that helmets meeting Snell standards aren't MORE dangerous for snowmobilers because of the very liner stiffness that Snell uses to convince you those helmets are better.

Honestly, no way do I think snell is worse. I just dont think after a lot of study they are necessarily better.

One problem is that a snell test uses an orange sized ball and a helmet must withstand 2 hits in the exact same place. Crash investigators say that accidents almost never involve 2 helmet hits in the same exact spot.
That is why the liners are stiffer, you cant use all of the crush zone of the liner in one impact because you have to save part of it for the 2nd impact.

Yeh, that's the point made by Snell detractors. In the real world, that doesn't happen, and the helmet is too stiff to absorb enough energy to protect the brain for those more-typical single hits.

 

[BigMac]

I'm not sure that helmets meeting Snell standards aren't MORE dangerous for snowmobilers because of the very liner stiffness that Snell uses to convince you those helmets are better.

Honestly, no way do I think snell is worse. I just dont think after a lot of study they are necessarily better.

If I were a NASCAR driver and had the possible of taking a 200 mph hit in a roll-cage protecting the rest of my body, I'd probably wear an Arai helmet. If I were a motorcycle racer, I might not bother because the force necessary to utilize the impact absorption of a Snell-rated helmet would kill me from a torn aorta or lacerated liver. For snowmobilng, I'm not so sure that they're not more dangerous.

And yes, I'm saying that a $20 DOT-approved helmet would very likely be as safe, maybe safer, for a typical snowmobiler than than an $800 Arai. It wouldn't be as comfortable, it wouldn't be as pretty, the mechanism wouldn't work as well and it wouldn't likely fit as well. But Arai doesn't spend all that money they charge their customers on safety. Expanded polystyrene is dirt cheap, and that $20 K-Mart special uses the same stuff as Arai.

 

[SledderSteve]

This has been a fairly civil thread but I'm starting to feel warmth. Let's continue to keep it civil or we'll all be forced to sing "Wheels on the Bus".

 

[Tork]

This has been a fairly civil thread but I'm starting to feel warmth. Let's continue to keep it civil or we'll all be forced to sing "Wheels on the Bus".

We are doing pretty good Stevarino......
Guys like a good debate once in awhile and I think everybody is being gentlemanly and respectful so far........

We are in a day and age of CAD (computer aided design) and I think that some helmet makers use this to make helmets safer than any mechanical standard snell or otherwise.

 

[BigMac]

If Snell would give us a snowmobile standard vs having to use the motorcycle one I would jump on the bandwagon. Lets get these brain buckets tested at zero deg F.

Key point, IMHO, and not just because of the temp difference. More to the point is that the nature of the impact is different. The thing that causes the disastrous brain injury is the deceleration of head when it hits something. As an EPF helmet liner collapses on an impact, it absorbs that energy from the deceleration of the head so that as little energy as possible is transmitted to the brain. Same concept as an automobile airbag. If the helmet liner is too stiff, as some say Snell motorcycle standards are, it doesn't collapse enough to absorb enough of the deceleration energy. AND...expanded polystyrene will likely have different properties (probably stiffer) at snowmobiling temps than at motorcycling temps, potentially making it even stiffer. Additionally, and more to the point IMHO, is that a typical motorcycle accident involves helmet on concrete - the helmet hitting a harder surface than snow, and one with a lot more friction, with thereforequicker deceleration. So, IMHO, a motorcycle helmet with DOT g-force standards, and especially a Snell-rated helmet with higher g-force standards, may well be too stiff to absorb much energy from a typical snowmobile accident in typical snowmobile temperatures.

No studies have been done on actual snowmobile head injuries vs helmet used, whereas there have been three or four that I know of for motorcycles. They tend to support the "Snell=too stiff" concept. Indeed, the EU has different (softer) g-force standards than Snell. The Arai helmet you buy in Germany has a whole different helmet liner concept than the Snell-rated Arai you buy in the USA.

 

[yamadoo]

Guys, I stayed in a HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS last night and..........


No in reality I am a Neuro Rehab Doc and After guys like BigMac save them we take care of Brain injured or spinal cord injured people. Kinda humpdy dumpty stuff

BigMac is right. The tests are not directly related to protection or the injury of the brain.

OK I learn so much from your sled technical info I will try to reciprocate.

Skip this part if only interested in the helmet issue, that is below

In brain injury we worry not just or even most about penetrating injuries(wholes in your head) but acceleration / deceleration shear injuries to the 'axons' connecting one part of the brain to another. This results in diffuse axonal injury - I hope no one but Big Mac knows what I am talking about bcz that may mean you have a loved one with a TBI - traumatic brain injury- hope not. In short the wires that connect the parts of the brain together are stretched or torn and subsequently the person does not think or perform well. It is this simple, different parts of the brain have different density, that is weight . So when the brain is shook up real severe the heavy ones move more than the light and stretch the connections. In this case a helmet that breaks down and absorps the energy is going to protect you more than a rigid helmet that holds together but transfers the energy to the brain.




So this is my thoughts.

The best protective device we have is good judgment.
I wear both a closed face electric and Motocross / goggles but I am looking for BVS2. They have their strengths and weakness's . If I hit a pipe that will penetrate I want a rigid helmet, if I tumble on the road or trail I want a softer helmet that absorbs energy better itself. I do not know what kind of accident I may be in so........ Drive safe be comfortable and do not put to much trust in your helmet to protect your BRAIN use your brain to protect all .





WOW
Sorry so long

Yamadoo

 

[Viper_Dave]

Thank you to Big Mac and Yamadoo. This subject was debated EXTENSIVELY last season. The bottom line is, NO testing has been done that relates to the conditions we ride in. The best thing you can do is wear a helmet, properly SECURED!! I have been guilty in the past of not securing my helmet. After my accident in January, I will NEVER ride without my chinstrap secured. Mine was secured at that time. I hit the ground hard enough to rip my Quik Strap mount off my helmet, broke the visor, and can feel the foam compressed inside of my helmet. Have a new HJC CLX-5 on order

 

[Tork]

great post. Where you said "The best protective devide we have is good judgement".
So what I have been saying for 2 years, get a helmet that is warm and quiet enough, one that gives you the best visability (optical clarity and good periferial) a flip down sunvisor might give you better visibility on those bright sunny snow blinding days.
The above might make you less distracted and more focused. Avoiding an accident in the first place is difficult to argue against.

and good news, snell has changed their specs quite a bit with M2010, accepting units for testing next month and available for sale by the end of the year.

 

[Convert]

Great explanation, at this point I'd say case closed

 

[Tork]

Great explanation, at this point I'd say case closed

Hmmm, you and Dave look like you want this thread over with, alright I will make this my final post.

Unless Snell certified helmets satisfy local governmental demands, they cannot reasonably be sold or worn within that locality. Until now, Snell M standards and ECE 22-05, the motorcycle helmet standard currently mandatory through out England and Europe, were incompatible...

Important Differences

Significant changes to impact testing .....

This standard introduces a change in the way helmets will be tested rendering M2010 and M2005 incompatible......