MOUNTAIN ENGINE FAILURES WITH TURBO CHARGER

[ProstockBenji]

that is part of the reason why Yamaha went and put a small RAD on the Apex , they sure didnt put it on because they didnt think the sled wasnt heavy enough !!

Ted, just curious if you recieved the intercooler monday .

 

[Ted Jannetty]

Ted, great post! You see this in every form of vehicle tuning... people want the GO, but often are ignorant about the additional cooling required (amongst other things).

If you don't mind (feel free to tell me to shut up), I'd like to add a few thoughts...

I have yet to look, but these engines probably have oil cooled pistons. So not only do you have marginal oil film, but the hot oil is doing nothing but helping the pistons stay nice and hot. Even if one is lucky enough to have the oil hold, that might contribute to some detonation which will surely finsh the job.

It would also be beneficial to see a nice swirl pot/tank for the coolant. The stock plastic reservoir is in an ideal location to be replaced by a decent swirl pot.... might as well keep what coolant is there doing it's job 100%.

The oil gets most all of its heat from the bottom of the pistons, oil is a coolant contrary to popular belief, and it can only hold so much heat before it starts to break down and run away from the hot parts.

Without oil on the bottom of the pistions they would surely melt even in a naturally asparated engine.

Most heavy duty turbo engine have spray nozzels that shoot oil directly on the bottom of the pistons for cooling.

Ted.

 

[bjowett]

Oil cooling, especially pistons, is almost a magic bullet for a good hi-po engine, IMO.

 

[sledheadgeorge]

[quote="Ted JannettyThe oil gets most all of its heat from the bottom of the pistons, oil is a coolant contrary to popular belief, and it can only hold so much heat before it starts to break down and run away from the hot parts.

Without oil on the bottom of the pistions they would surely melt even in a naturally asparated engine.

Most heavy duty turbo engine have spray nozzels that shoot oil directly on the bottom of the pistons for cooling.

Ted.[/quote]

So, in your opinion Ted, what kind of oil is the best for turbo charged engines, .....synthetic, dino, raitings etc.?

 

[Ted Jannetty]

[quote="Ted JannettyThe oil gets most all of its heat from the bottom of the pistons, oil is a coolant contrary to popular belief, and it can only hold so much heat before it starts to break down and run away from the hot parts.

Without oil on the bottom of the pistions they would surely melt even in a naturally asparated engine.

Most heavy duty turbo engine have spray nozzels that shoot oil directly on the bottom of the pistons for cooling.

Ted.

So, in your opinion Ted, what kind of oil is the best for turbo charged engines, .....synthetic, dino, raitings etc.?[/quote]

I don't really want to get off topic here but Full synthetics have wider operating temp range than dino oil.

Yes Benji I got my intercooler it is perfect thanks.

Ted.

 

[Colorado Yamaha]

Good info Ted / Guys: I have over 2 seasons on my S/C Stage I at 10 psi and did add a much larger rear cooler and have more oil added to the MPI oil can. With my gauges to help monitor, no issues at all.

 

[hooper]

Every turbo owner must have experienced execive heat.I had to mount an extra cooler on the rear,even after that it totaly emptied the expantiontank for antifreeze and I run a shorty in the flatlands!At first I thought it was a bad leaking but when I put the hose from the antifreezetank ta a bottle it
almost fild it!
Do you guys know about a bigger coolanttanK?
I have seen a picture somewhere of an extra radiantcooler placed over the right footrest next to the chaincase,I dont know if it was for oil or antifreeze but that seamed to be a good idea.

 

[rxrider]

Off topic but -

hooper - if it's pushing coolant out the overflow line form the coolant bottle you most likely have a head gasket leak. Combustion gases leaks into the coolant and pressurizes it to where the coolant bottle cap can't hold the pressure in anymore (1.1 BAR or 16 LBS), and there she blows. Been there done that.

 

[hooper]

Ouch! Guess I have some work to do

 

[Travis Moore]

[quote="Ted JannettyThe oil gets most all of its heat from the bottom of the pistons, oil is a coolant contrary to popular belief, and it can only hold so much heat before it starts to break down and run away from the hot parts.

Without oil on the bottom of the pistions they would surely melt even in a naturally asparated engine.

Most heavy duty turbo engine have spray nozzels that shoot oil directly on the bottom of the pistons for cooling.

Ted.

So, in your opinion Ted, what kind of oil is the best for turbo charged engines, .....synthetic, dino, raitings etc.?[/quote]


A high quality synthetic DIESEL oil is the best you will get....Rotella T 5/40 comes to mind.

 

[Ted Jannetty]

A high quality synthetic DIESEL oil is the best you will get....Rotella T 5/40 comes to mind.

So Travis is this what you run in you lexus and RX1?

Good Luck with that.

I will stick with Yamaha Oil I will put my trust in the engineers that designed the engine.

This discussion was meant to help solve some of the engine failures that the mountain guys are having, and it comes down to the fact that they are increasing power and removing heat exchangers and installing smaller oil tanks on some of the turbo kits then holding them wide open for long periods of time, the heat build up is breaking down the oil and over heating everything, the heat has no where to go, they need to install more heat exchangers and an auxilury oil cooler to prevent engine failures.

NO oil in the world is going to fix that.

 

[Philscbx]

Not only do you have to double oil capacity and the cooling of it, but you are also double loading the rod bearings on boost. And then the poor Head, Valves and Seats.

You need to double the oil pressure as well with this light film base that's used to help support the load.

You also need to modify the crank journals at the oil ports.

So far I haven't seen one post showing live oil pressure readings. The system is not complete w/o it.

It's no different than a marathon runner with half a heart and half a lung. They won't last.

You'll find I have posted enough about turbo applications to 80 psi, and the huge down side repeatedly, getting there.
When you get them to hold together at 80 psi, your on the right path.

 

[bjowett]

To reiterate, in addition to the oil system mods, check out swirl pots. Quite a bit of cooling system efficiency is lost to disolved air in the coolant.

 

[ken_climb]

As far as I know, Apex mountain turbo engine failures are very rare. Any of the few I've heard of are usually install related, or to high of boost for the amount of octane used.

NO disrespect, but just because you didn't hear about them doesn't mean they are not happening, I got emails from 2 seperate guys yesterday alone and after talking with them we found just what I suspected, smaller oil tanks on board and less cooling then stock due to replacement tunnels to save weight.

If anything we should be adding oil capacity and more heat exchangers when going to higher power levels and riding in the mountains, these guys are telling me they hold the throttle wide open for up to 5 minutes at a time, that to me is asking waaaaaaayyyyy to much without the extra oil and water cooling.

The bottom line is the turbo kits that reduce oil capacity are part of the problem, then removing heat exchagers is the other, compounded with long pulls.

IN any Endurance racing we add oil capacity, and coolers to the engine, transmission, rear end, even if we are working with stock class racing, this eliminates failures.

Like it or not you mountain guys are ENDURANCE racing your engines with DOUBLE THE POWER AND HEAT PRODUCTION and HALF THE OIL AND COOLING.

That is a recipe for disaster.

No disrespect to you too, But there are hundreds of us boosted yamis running in the mountains with No Engine failures running High boost for long long pulls with no problems. I think these couple of failures that you heard about are very isolated.........Also I believe there is only one turbo company that is using a smaller then stock oil tank, or am I wrong?

 

[Turbo Tim]

Ken would know , he's in Turbo country ! Up here in Alaska turbo's are few and far between , But I've had three different turbosleds( all in the mountains) with no failures yet . All three have had the stock oil capacity , and large rear coolers . Anyone reducing their cooling capacity is just asking for trouble !