Pre 2011 apex versus the 800 Etec?

[silversurfer]

Great post, 'Stroker.

Turk hit the nail on the head, I think. All the torque in the world won't matter if the weight disadvantage keeps increasing year after year. No way in hell would I buy an Etec 800 - I'm afraid of the motor - but at 620 lbs I wouldn't buy an Apex, either. That's creeping up on 200 lbs!

I wish Yamaha would flex some of their engineering might and work on a lighter chassis...hopefully they shock the world again in coming years.

 

[rindtj]

So what gives the apex a fighting a chance? I am not arguing with you guys, just curious as to how an apex can even compete?

 

[SledFreak]

Re: Yamaha Stupid?

X2, As dumb as Yamaha's marketing hype was, it was kind of funny to hear SO much e tec chatter,

Yes, but the stupid thing Yamaha did was not say what the HP was for 2011. I guarantee you, they would have had alot more sales in the spring, if they would of shown the hp and 30% more torque it had on the bot and mid. Not saying anything and not really seeing a visual signaficant change was not smart for sales. Telling people to just to ride and tell me how it felt, again was not the right approach. Telling after the ride would have been a big impact as well. As stupid as it sounds, In snowmobiling these days, people care more about HP, then anything. It would of helped offset the high price of the sled. Just look what DOO says or Cat. Cat says they have the worlds most powerful AC. It may not run like that, but people buy it.... DOO did the same for the new Etec.... They had someone send the 2010.5 Etec to the dyno and release the numbers in the spring. Yamaha did the same, but waited until Sept?

It was offten said that Yamaha would release a 164-165hp sled to replace the 2006-2010 Apex and when they did not or for whatever reason and did not want to release the numbers, they hyjacked there own big release. They just played it all wrong. HP Numbers play serious mind games when it comes to sledders... JMO....

I agree with you, I do think that the marketing strategy was stupid, assuming Yamaha actually wanted to sell these things, which I would assume that they did? I just thought that after all the dust settled it was funny, almost like they are not even trying, they can do whatever they want with this motor.


Ya really think the marketing staff at Yamaha didn't consider your points?

Yamaha company has been beaten up by "Frivolous law suits", brought by American people who think they're entitled to grab as "much as they can get" from every situation they put themselves into with THEIR OWN DECISIONS AND CHOICES.

Thats right, your injured buddy, you or the poor basterd who CHOSE TO SLAM INTO A TREE or another snowmobile rider at 100 miles an hour on a trail and the family is so broken up by the death of an "IDIOT" family member who bought the farm by his own choices...they hire the lawyer down the street to CAPITOLIZE on the death of a family member...like money might bring them back?????

They access a corrupt legal system being perpetuated by your next door neighbor...ya know, the big bad sucessful lawyer, judge and law making congressman who lives in the big house at the end of the street!

The real reason you can't get your 200HP snowmobile from Yamaha, as a "completed assembly" which you can buy as part of the basic product line is simple as the first sentence in my paragraph.

America and freedom are being defeated at a very rapid pace and the first place we need to look...is right in the mirror. We are making it impossible to enjoy anything anymore with our selfish, greedy tendancies and it won't be long now before you see all of your freedom gone!

Yamaha CANNOT spout off about things like "fastest", highest HP or anything like that anymore. The fact that they are the largest company, with the deepest pockets of any company who manufacturers sport recreational vehicles, make them the "number-one" choice for sue happy idiots and their families!

How about this my friends....you ride a snowmobile, a motorcycle or anything that moves and YOU ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DECISIONS AND ACTIONS AND SIGN A NON CONTESTABLE AGREEMENT THAT "IF YOU CHOOSE TO RIDE YOU ALSO CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THE CHANCE YOU'LL DIE OR BECOME INJURED OR ANOTHER RIDER MAY INJURE YOU WITHOUT RECOURSE...and I promise you'll see 220HP motorcycles and snowmobiles at a price you can once again afford!

$15,000 snowmobiles...bet you in five years, there will be a sled selling for 19,000 dollars!!

And now you know the reason???? What the hell does this have to do about this sled... The lawsuits you are talking about all have to do with the Rhino. They won them all, but I heard it hurt them alot.... But, they are still selling Rhino's.... The prices of sleds are what ever the market will absorb... If it was true about the hp, why did'nt they say what the weight was? They also said an 7-8% increase. Just bad marketing IMO. If you don't like the price, buy a used one...

 

[SledFreak]

Broad torque does nothing for ya when your 140 pounds heavier & your clutching instantly goes close to redline where your in the hunt with 800 2 strokes in the torque curve.
You don,t hit the flipper & accelerate from 6 k rpm where the 4 stroke shows huge torque advantedge.
You gotta understand rpm,s vs what ur up against.
The low rpm torque advantedge basically is a wash cus ur never really there.

If the weight was such an Issue, Yamaha would lose against every sled almost out there and if that was the case... Then why would we really buy them? The broad torque accounts for something, because if the peaky 2 stroke is out by a couple of RPM, they are toast... It also helps accounts alot for trail riding where you just can't get back on the Trottle Wide open again. The 800R is definetely beatable and I have done it, so has alot of my buddies sleds...

 

[Turk]

800r is beatable but a broken in good running 800 e-tech is a different animal & thats what this thread is about.

 

[FrostyNutz]

So what gives the apex a fighting a chance? I am not arguing with you guys, just curious as to how an apex can even compete?
_________________




Quality !

Think of it like buying a camera. You can get a disposible camera that takes 30 awesome pics for pretty cheap. You can toss it around and stash it in your pocket and it still takes great pics. When the pics are all taken ,,it's garbage. OR you can buy a Canon T2i that will take awesome pics for many years to come. You will need a bag to carry it so it's not quite as versatile. The thing is , you can add new lenses to open up your range and make it even better for what you use it for. Sound familier ? Which camera would you rather have ? LOL

I think it all comes down to the buyer ... If you want a ditch bangin , standup sled ,, buy a XP or poo. If you want a quality built sled that does everything well but nothing the best,, buy a Yamaha. If you "must" be the fastest in your group down the lake than turbo your APex. They can't do much other than add a fart can and some clutching. You can add 100 HP in a day


Yamaha hasn't changed their way of thinking in 20 years. They give us a well engineered base product and let us build on it from there. Other manufacturers push the limits of their engineering to the edge of failure and brag about their accomplishment. Truth is ,, that's just not Yamaha's style.


Will a pre 2011 beat a new 800 Etec ? I highly doubt it , My 2011 Apex probably won't beat it . If I wanted to own the lake i'd turbo my APex .

 

[Turk]

3 of my buds bought 800 e-techs & i expect to get beat in anything under 1000' with my apex xtx.

 

[SuperStroker!]

Re: Yamaha Stupid?

X2, As dumb as Yamaha's marketing hype was, it was kind of funny to hear SO much e tec chatter,

Yes, but the stupid thing Yamaha did was not say what the HP was for 2011. I guarantee you, they would have had alot more sales in the spring, if they would of shown the hp and 30% more torque it had on the bot and mid. Not saying anything and not really seeing a visual signaficant change was not smart for sales. Telling people to just to ride and tell me how it felt, again was not the right approach. Telling after the ride would have been a big impact as well. As stupid as it sounds, In snowmobiling these days, people care more about HP, then anything. It would of helped offset the high price of the sled. Just look what DOO says or Cat. Cat says they have the worlds most powerful AC. It may not run like that, but people buy it.... DOO did the same for the new Etec.... They had someone send the 2010.5 Etec to the dyno and release the numbers in the spring. Yamaha did the same, but waited until Sept?

It was offten said that Yamaha would release a 164-165hp sled to replace the 2006-2010 Apex and when they did not or for whatever reason and did not want to release the numbers, they hyjacked there own big release. They just played it all wrong. HP Numbers play serious mind games when it comes to sledders... JMO....

I agree with you, I do think that the marketing strategy was stupid, assuming Yamaha actually wanted to sell these things, which I would assume that they did? I just thought that after all the dust settled it was funny, almost like they are not even trying, they can do whatever they want with this motor.


Ya really think the marketing staff at Yamaha didn't consider your points?

Yamaha company has been beaten up by "Frivolous law suits", brought by American people who think they're entitled to grab as "much as they can get" from every situation they put themselves into with THEIR OWN DECISIONS AND CHOICES.

Thats right, your injured buddy, you or the poor basterd who CHOSE TO SLAM INTO A TREE or another snowmobile rider at 100 miles an hour on a trail and the family is so broken up by the death of an "IDIOT" family member who bought the farm by his own choices...they hire the lawyer down the street to CAPITOLIZE on the death of a family member...like money might bring them back?????

They access a corrupt legal system being perpetuated by your next door neighbor...ya know, the big bad sucessful lawyer, judge and law making congressman who lives in the big house at the end of the street!

The real reason you can't get your 200HP snowmobile from Yamaha, as a "completed assembly" which you can buy as part of the basic product line is simple as the first sentence in my paragraph.

America and freedom are being defeated at a very rapid pace and the first place we need to look...is right in the mirror. We are making it impossible to enjoy anything anymore with our selfish, greedy tendancies and it won't be long now before you see all of your freedom gone!

Yamaha CANNOT spout off about things like "fastest", highest HP or anything like that anymore. The fact that they are the largest company, with the deepest pockets of any company who manufacturers sport recreational vehicles, make them the "number-one" choice for sue happy idiots and their families!

How about this my friends....you ride a snowmobile, a motorcycle or anything that moves and YOU ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DECISIONS AND ACTIONS AND SIGN A NON CONTESTABLE AGREEMENT THAT "IF YOU CHOOSE TO RIDE YOU ALSO CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THE CHANCE YOU'LL DIE OR BECOME INJURED OR ANOTHER RIDER MAY INJURE YOU WITHOUT RECOURSE...and I promise you'll see 220HP motorcycles and snowmobiles at a price you can once again afford!

$15,000 snowmobiles...bet you in five years, there will be a sled selling for 19,000 dollars!!

And now you know the reason???? What the hell does this have to do about this sled... The lawsuits you are talking about all have to do with the Rhino. They won them all, but I heard it hurt them alot.... But, they are still selling Rhino's.... The prices of sleds are what ever the market will absorb... If it was true about the hp, why did'nt they say what the weight was? They also said an 7-8% increase. Just bad marketing IMO. If you don't like the price, buy a used one...

It has everything in the world to do with this sled! Why the hell do you think the 2010 VMAX motorcycle is priced at $19,000.00? Ya really think it's because the technology in that bike costs that much?

You can't even begin to imagine what it cost companies to fight frivolous lawsuits...sure Yamaha may have won the Rhino case but they gave the corrupt legal system millions in doing so!

So, where do you think the money comes from to fight lawsuits? If Yamah Corp makes 5K on a snowmobile, how many snowmobiles do they have to sell to recover 3m in legal fees?

Look at the big picture...the cost to companies to maintain legal resources is reflected in the price we pay for our recreational vehicles.

THE POINT IS...you stated that Yamaha is stupid and with you're opinion, you're much smarter than Yamaha corporate advisors with regard to "how they advertise" their products.

I'm simply stating that I disagree with you and I'm maintaining that Yamaha is not as stupid as you think and does things in ways that may seem "self defeating" form our SMALL perspective but I assure you, they are not STUPID and they do things for "big picture" reasons and LAWSUITS, amongst others, are a significant DRIVER of the price you pay for your toy from Yamaha.

More imortantly, YAMAHA in the last 25 years has been a bit reluctant to produce "highest HP, racing machines for consumer trail use" and then brag about things like "speed, HP, faster, fastest" in order to sell products. Lawyers take those ads and submitt them as evidence when attempting to win a frivolous lawsuit.

Snowmobiles have become too expensive for most people to consider for their recreational pleasure...it hasn't always been this way and my point is; it will get worse and that is simply one more loss of freedom in our way of life here in the US and we're...you and I are to blame!

Sorry if you don't like the message...don't kill the messenger, I'm not your enemy!

 

[SledFreak]

800r is beatable but a broken in good running 800 e-tech is a different animal & thats what this thread is about.

The only thing the Etec is good for is top end.... It's no different then the 2008-2010 out of the hole and mid range... The 2010.5 has some considerable top end. About 5mph. I believe it's all in the ECU flash. Having said that, the 2011 has had the compression lowered, different intake track, pipe,y-pipe and re-flash. The 163hp number that is claimed by dynotech is a 2010.5. We'll see if the 2011 is just as fast...

I have heard that a 1200 with RB3 and header, clutched ran head to head with 2010.5 etec to about 105+ and then the etec pulled away. This was tested multple times...

The other threat is a Crossfire 800. They will run with or beat an 800R etec. They have the same hp and awesome top end and a way better motor. Very well build 2 stroke motor...

RockerDAn said he beat it at a 20mph roll on, on a well tuned 2006 Apex RTX, running the etec multiple races with his Apex RTX....

 

[SledFreak]

3 of my buds bought 800 e-techs & i expect to get beat in anything under 1000' with my apex xtx.

You are giving them to much credit....

 

[Rocketman]

If knew how to bring up my past posts i would, last year around march if anybody cares to look. Yamaha cared, they quoted me on the Canadain site apex page.
If i sound like a broken record, i'm sorry but i said last year after riding what looked like a full production xtx. Unsupervised on the lake for a good 45 minutes. When everybody was complaining about small hp increase i said the sled i rode was over 160hp and mid range was explosive. I've owned a 230hp turbo rx1 so i have experienced decient power.
The biggest problem against the e-tec will be the lanch in a short race. Get your apex to hook out of the gate and there will be very few stock sleds that will challange at any lenght race and next to none all the way down the lake.
and sorry torque has every thing to do with acceleration.
I said it before and i'll say it again. they f%$#$#%ing rock?
Enjoy, lots of nice supprises ahead.
break in link http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

[SledFreak]

Re: Yamaha Stupid?

X2, As dumb as Yamaha's marketing hype was, it was kind of funny to hear SO much e tec chatter,

Yes, but the stupid thing Yamaha did was not say what the HP was for 2011. I guarantee you, they would have had alot more sales in the spring, if they would of shown the hp and 30% more torque it had on the bot and mid. Not saying anything and not really seeing a visual signaficant change was not smart for sales. Telling people to just to ride and tell me how it felt, again was not the right approach. Telling after the ride would have been a big impact as well. As stupid as it sounds, In snowmobiling these days, people care more about HP, then anything. It would of helped offset the high price of the sled. Just look what DOO says or Cat. Cat says they have the worlds most powerful AC. It may not run like that, but people buy it.... DOO did the same for the new Etec.... They had someone send the 2010.5 Etec to the dyno and release the numbers in the spring. Yamaha did the same, but waited until Sept?

It was offten said that Yamaha would release a 164-165hp sled to replace the 2006-2010 Apex and when they did not or for whatever reason and did not want to release the numbers, they hyjacked there own big release. They just played it all wrong. HP Numbers play serious mind games when it comes to sledders... JMO....

I agree with you, I do think that the marketing strategy was stupid, assuming Yamaha actually wanted to sell these things, which I would assume that they did? I just thought that after all the dust settled it was funny, almost like they are not even trying, they can do whatever they want with this motor.


Ya really think the marketing staff at Yamaha didn't consider your points?

Yamaha company has been beaten up by "Frivolous law suits", brought by American people who think they're entitled to grab as "much as they can get" from every situation they put themselves into with THEIR OWN DECISIONS AND CHOICES.

Thats right, your injured buddy, you or the poor basterd who CHOSE TO SLAM INTO A TREE or another snowmobile rider at 100 miles an hour on a trail and the family is so broken up by the death of an "IDIOT" family member who bought the farm by his own choices...they hire the lawyer down the street to CAPITOLIZE on the death of a family member...like money might bring them back?????

They access a corrupt legal system being perpetuated by your next door neighbor...ya know, the big bad sucessful lawyer, judge and law making congressman who lives in the big house at the end of the street!

The real reason you can't get your 200HP snowmobile from Yamaha, as a "completed assembly" which you can buy as part of the basic product line is simple as the first sentence in my paragraph.

America and freedom are being defeated at a very rapid pace and the first place we need to look...is right in the mirror. We are making it impossible to enjoy anything anymore with our selfish, greedy tendancies and it won't be long now before you see all of your freedom gone!

Yamaha CANNOT spout off about things like "fastest", highest HP or anything like that anymore. The fact that they are the largest company, with the deepest pockets of any company who manufacturers sport recreational vehicles, make them the "number-one" choice for sue happy idiots and their families!

How about this my friends....you ride a snowmobile, a motorcycle or anything that moves and YOU ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DECISIONS AND ACTIONS AND SIGN A NON CONTESTABLE AGREEMENT THAT "IF YOU CHOOSE TO RIDE YOU ALSO CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THE CHANCE YOU'LL DIE OR BECOME INJURED OR ANOTHER RIDER MAY INJURE YOU WITHOUT RECOURSE...and I promise you'll see 220HP motorcycles and snowmobiles at a price you can once again afford!

$15,000 snowmobiles...bet you in five years, there will be a sled selling for 19,000 dollars!!

And now you know the reason???? What the hell does this have to do about this sled... The lawsuits you are talking about all have to do with the Rhino. They won them all, but I heard it hurt them alot.... But, they are still selling Rhino's.... The prices of sleds are what ever the market will absorb... If it was true about the hp, why did'nt they say what the weight was? They also said an 7-8% increase. Just bad marketing IMO. If you don't like the price, buy a used one...

It has everything in the world to do with this sled! Why the hell do you think the 2010 VMAX motorcycle is priced at $19,000.00? Ya really think it's because the technology in that bike costs that much?

You can't even begin to imagine what it cost companies to fight frivolous lawsuits...sure Yamaha may have won the Rhino case but they gave the corrupt legal system millions in doing so!

So, where do you think the money comes from to fight lawsuits? If Yamah Corp makes 5K on a snowmobile, how many snowmobiles do they have to sell to recover 3m in legal fees?

Look at the big picture...the cost to companies to maintain legal resources is reflected in the price we pay for our recreational vehicles.

THE POINT IS...you stated that Yamaha is stupid and with you're opinion, you're much smarter than Yamaha corporate advisors with regard to "how they advertise" their products.

I'm simply stating that I disagree with you and I'm maintaining that Yamaha is not as stupid as you think and does things in ways that may seem "self defeating" form our SMALL perspective but I assure you, they are not STUPID and they do things for "big picture" reasons and LAWSUITS, amongst others, are a significant DRIVER of the price you pay for your toy from Yamaha.

More imortantly, YAMAHA in the last 25 years has been a bit reluctant to produce "highest HP, racing machines for consumer trail use" and then brag about things like "speed, HP, faster, fastest" in order to sell products. Lawyers take those ads and submitt them as evidence when attempting to win a frivolous lawsuit.

Snowmobiles have become too expensive for most people to consider for their recreational pleasure...it hasn't always been this way and my point is; it will get worse and that is simply one more loss of freedom in our way of life here in the US and we're...you and I are to blame!

Sorry if you don't like the message...don't kill the messenger, I'm not your enemy!

You are not talking sleds here... The bike world sells almost 10 times that are sold compared to sleds. It has nothing to what you are talking about, it is what the market will bare.... All OEM's push the limit when it comes to making money and pricing there units. Yamaha's in particular, the reason you are seeing such a price jump in the U.S has alot to do the value of the U.S. currency against the yenn....


THIS POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PRICING OR LAWSUITS... IT HAS TO WITH ETEC VS APEX AND THE COMPARISON OF HP....

 

[SledFreak]

If knew how to bring up my past posts i would, last year around march if anybody cares to look. Yamaha cared, they quoted me on the Canadain site apex page.
If i sound like a broken record, i'm sorry but i said last year after riding what looked like a full production xtx. Unsupervised on the lake for a good 45 minutes. When everybody was complaining about small hp increase i said the sled i rode was over 160hp and mid range was explosive. I've owned a 230hp turbo rx1 so i have experienced decient power.
The biggest problem against the e-tec will be the lanch in a short race. Get your apex to hook out of the gate and there will be very few stock sleds that will challange at any lenght race and next to none all the way down the lake.
and sorry torque has every thing to do with acceleration.
I said it before and i'll say it again. they f%$#$#%ing rock?
Enjoy, lots of nice supprises ahead.
break in link http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

X2, I agree 100% with what you are saying..

 

[whitedust1]

Someone mentioned the Doo being about maxed out from the factory, which i believe. I also believe that Yamaha has a TON left, but won't bring it untill needed.
Best thing they did was not to get involved in the HP "number" wars. Just let THEM think about it........

X2, As dumb as Yamaha's marketing hype was, it was kind of funny to hear SO much e tec chatter, Yamaha didn't change anything, blah, blah, blah. All of sudden that thing goes on the dyno, and wow, maybe this isn't the same old thing. Makes it seem like Yamaha can do whatever they want with their motors, almost like an afterthought.

Yes, but the stupid thing Yamaha did was not say what the HP was for 2011. I guarantee you, they would have had alot more sales in the spring, if they would of shown the hp and 30% more torque it had on the bot and mid. Not saying anything and not really seeing a visual signaficant change was not smart for sales. Telling people to just to ride and tell me how it felt, again was not the right approach. Telling after the ride would have been a big impact as well. As stupid as it sounds, In snowmobiling these days, people care more about HP, then anything. It would of helped offset the high price of the sled. Just look what DOO says or Cat. Cat says they have the worlds most powerful AC. It may not run like that, but people buy it.... DOO did the same for the new Etec.... They had someone send the 2010.5 Etec to the dyno and release the numbers in the spring. Yamaha did the same, but waited until Sept?

It was offten said that Yamaha would release a 164-165hp sled to replace the 2006-2010 Apex and when they did not or for whatever reason and did not want to release the numbers, they hyjacked there own big release. They just played it all wrong. HP Numbers play serious mind games when it comes to sledders... JMO....

Wow! I totally agree with you on this & hope Yamaha never again goes down the path of "hey guys what do you think" marketing. Instead explain in detail ASAP what is new & how it benefits me. I was sooooooooooo confused by heresay I just started to ingnor all the new Apex 2011 Marketing because I didn't know what was true & what was "hey guys what do you think" BS. The "hey guys what do you think Apex 2011 marketing kept me on the sidelines until I could figure out fact from fiction & I'm still on the sidelines sorting out new Apex SE & XTX since different suspensions & weight penalties. Tell me the facts in detail & limit confusion so I can make an easy decision of what is best for me. Disclose weight too we all know Apex is a easy rider heavyweight so be up front about specs. Sorry about the rant but but I thought Yamaha was dead wrong with 2011 Apex marketing approach & I never want to go thru that in 2012 again with any model.

 

[SuperStroker!]

Re: Yamaha Stupid?

THIS POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PRICING OR LAWSUITS... IT HAS TO WITH ETEC VS APEX AND THE COMPARISON OF HP....[/quote]

Agreed!

However, it had nothing to do with Yamaha marketing either and you brought it up.