Pre 2011 apex versus the 800 Etec?

[KnappAttack]

Here is a prediction, The Yamaha will not run with The CFR 800 or the 800 etec at the shootout. It will be a distant third.

The Pre-Production Apex dynoed at 163 HP after over 1500 miles put on it. We all know they take alot of miles before they start to run good. Get one there with a couple thousand mile on it and it COULD be a different story.

I bet the production Apex doesn't crack over 160. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it happening. Who's to say the pre-pros aren't ringers with timing jacked in them or extra compression ect.? Makes for good sales.

 

[**sj**]

Like DANO said I played with the DEMO last year that Northland had on the lake....I also rode it too.

when i rode it(800e) i thought it was a rocket with all the ski lift ect ect...so i thought i would take a good licking from it.

But...from slight roll on(about 10mph) i stayed side by side till about 50mph then i walked away from him quite easily and after a few seconds i was 10 sled lengths ahead.

my 06 has always been fast.....96 studs,predator 1",Proline modified clutch setup. I have radared at 120+.

I think most STOCK apexs PRE 11 would have a tough time with the etec....i think on top end they would be about same.

I have pulled away from most apexs i race in about the same manner.

bottom line,i wouldnt go back to a 2stroke DOO for any amt of money....they just arent built of any quality IMO. and i love how i can run my apex hard mile after mile wide open down lakes and have barely ever even worn a belt....on any HI HP DOO,you might as well take stock in the belt manufacturers ......I used to spend more on belts on my machs then anything else,and from what i saw the belt life on the 800 and 1200 is no better.

Dan

how many miles on the etec??

 

[**sj**]

800r is beatable but a broken in good running 800 e-tech is a different animal & thats what this thread is about.

The only thing the Etec is good for is top end.... It's no different then the 2008-2010 out of the hole and mid range... The 2010.5 has some considerable top end. About 5mph. I believe it's all in the ECU flash. Having said that, the 2011 has had the compression lowered, different intake track, pipe,y-pipe and re-flash. The 163hp number that is claimed by dynotech is a 2010.5. We'll see if the 2011 is just as fast...

I have heard that a 1200 with RB3 and header, clutched ran head to head with 2010.5 etec to about 105+ and then the etec pulled away. This was tested multple times...

The other threat is a Crossfire 800. They will run with or beat an 800R etec. They have the same hp and awesome top end and a way better motor. Very well build 2 stroke motor...

RockerDAn said he beat it at a 20mph roll on, on a well tuned 2006 Apex RTX, running the etec multiple races with his Apex RTX....

Ive heard cudney and billy howard both have dyno'd a 2011 and its the same as the 10.5... right at around 163...

also..and I dont know...but from what Ive heard the fuel quality issue on the 800 motors is where some of the problems occured in the past...

this said...every doo guy Ive talked to tells me about a 6-10 thousand mile 800r no issues (post 2007)

if it runs around the same as a new apex except the top end I will be a happy camper not to have to lug around the other 125+ lbs on the trail...

 

[**sj**]

btw heres bikeman's dyno of the 2011 etec..

 

[SledFreak]

Here is a prediction, The Yamaha will not run with The CFR 800 or the 800 etec at the shootout. It will be a distant third.

The Pre-Production Apex dynoed at 163 HP after over 1500 miles put on it. We all know they take alot of miles before they start to run good. Get one there with a couple thousand mile on it and it COULD be a different story.

I bet the production Apex doesn't crack over 160. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it happening. Who's to say the pre-pros aren't ringers with timing jacked in them or extra compression ect.? Makes for good sales.

Because that's just not Yamahas style... They have not yet made any ringers with the 4 strokes for late releases. They don't have late releases... Maybe the 2 strokes were a different story... Before my time with Yamaha's. But I sure as hell seen DOO and CAT do it many many times. I do agree with mileage. The one dynoed a dynotech had 3000 miles on it.

 

[SledFreak]

800r is beatable but a broken in good running 800 e-tech is a different animal & thats what this thread is about.

The only thing the Etec is good for is top end.... It's no different then the 2008-2010 out of the hole and mid range... The 2010.5 has some considerable top end. About 5mph. I believe it's all in the ECU flash. Having said that, the 2011 has had the compression lowered, different intake track, pipe,y-pipe and re-flash. The 163hp number that is claimed by dynotech is a 2010.5. We'll see if the 2011 is just as fast...

I have heard that a 1200 with RB3 and header, clutched ran head to head with 2010.5 etec to about 105+ and then the etec pulled away. This was tested multple times...

The other threat is a Crossfire 800. They will run with or beat an 800R etec. They have the same hp and awesome top end and a way better motor. Very well build 2 stroke motor...

RockerDAn said he beat it at a 20mph roll on, on a well tuned 2006 Apex RTX, running the etec multiple races with his Apex RTX....

Ive heard cudney and billy howard both have dyno'd a 2011 and its the same as the 10.5... right at around 163...

also..and I dont know...but from what Ive heard the fuel quality issue on the 800 motors is where some of the problems occured in the past...

this said...every doo guy Ive talked to tells me about a 6-10 thousand mile 800r no issues (post 2007)

if it runs around the same as a new apex except the top end I will be a happy camper not to have to lug around the other 125+ lbs on the trail...

Billy Howard says it's 163 and he is the only one that dynoed it at dynotech and it was the 2010.5. I also Heard DOO payed for it, just like Yamaha had Woody's from New York bring the Apex to dynotech. Cudney says Howard's numbers are out to lunch, because his dyno only reads 155, the same as the 2010 800R powertek and I talked to him the other day. Also when I talked to Mark Lester at SuperTrax last spring he said flat out, that the 800R motor etec or not is still a 3-5000mile motor.

Maybe that's all you need....


edited.... Here is part of the dynotech session on the new Apex and what Jim from dynotech said..

Peak Clutch HP and Torque look almost identical to the 800 Etec and Cat 800 HO if not one or two better, However at lower speeds the APEX makes way more torque, close to 90 lbs at 4,500-5,000 tach RPM and over 100 lbs peaking at over 109, in a 4,000 rpm wide power band vs. a 1,000 rpm wide over 100 lbs power band on the Etec.

According to Dynotech the 162.8 isn't the right number, it's 163.7, which peaks from 10,100-10,300, still making 163+ until 10,700 but torque falls off 4-5 lbs.

The 162.8 number came from a run with a sensor issue.


Yamaha engineers increased the performance of the new Apex by making a host of small updates that resulted in a new peak horsepower of 162.8 in independent Dynotech Research testing on a 2011 preproduction unit. That’s a nearly 10 percent increase over the previous-generation 4-cylinder Genesis engine. It boasts a ridiculously wide torque curve with a remarkable peak of 109.8 ft/lbs at 7300 rpm for arm-stretching acceleration. Additionally, it features the first Exhaust Ultimate Performance, or EXUP® valve found in a snowmobile.

When it comes to straightforward raw torque, the Genesis Top Performance 4-stroke engine decimates the competition, according to independent Dynotech Research dyno testing. It shows a staggering 32% midrange torque advantage over the 2011 Polaris® 800 Rush® preproduction unit and 25% more midrange torque than the early release 2011 Ski-Doo® 800 E-Tec®. Even Arctic Cat®’s production F8™ falls 17 percent short to the newest 4-cylinder Genesis 4-stroke engine in midrange torque! This 4-cylinder engine makes 100+ ft/lbs of torque for a range of 2400 rpm while the competition’s 2-strokes make 100+ ft/lbs of torque for an average range of only 500 rpm. What all this midrange torque advantage means to Yamaha Apex owners is amazing throttle response and acceleration off of a backshift and coming out of the corner.

 

[Rocketman]

Did anybody see hp #'s on last years apex? or the year before when Yamahe said nothing about Hp increase.
Every year Yamaha gives you a little more, they don't always tell you but its there. Haven't you ever noticed the same models often (not always) are faster then the prior year? Look at the list of changes to induction and motor internals........... for 7 hp? I don't think so.
My prediction. The short hop will undoubtedly be a problem but once it hooks up the, big yami is going to show what they know.
e-tec is an ongoing experiment in 2 smoke big power low emisions. The apex is has the most refined sled in the industry.
165hp for sure and thats 175-180 for cat and doo.
the time is near.

 

[FrostyNutz]

^^Rocketman,, I like your posts

 

[**sj**]

if they would have removed weight....instead of adding it...and just pulled a bit more out of the engineering bin than they did...Id be on an apex...

sure the apex might be faster on the big end..but unless your doing endless straights...well watch this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXFlkYNqtUg

and yes...the 2 stroke isnt what any fourstroke is in terms of durability...but I bet five thousand miles isnt nowaday realistic...

bottomline if Yamaha unleashed their true engineering power...theyd have a stump pulling direct injection power valved motor kicking all of their behinds...
until then I'll take a few miles per hour slower and one hell of a trail sled

 

[Rocketman]

For me.... unless i'm driving on trails that are only 2 sleds wide below 30 mph all day long. The weight works just fine for me. It keeps the sled planted... i don't feel like when i hit a bump the sled gets all flighty and un predictable. Especially on the lake.... if i'm book'n it..... drifts and all i want the weight. The power steering is going to help huge on the trails for people who are unhappy about the extra pounds. Is it heavy.... we all know the answer to that. Yamaha will not sacrifice quality for stats. Could they build it lighter and just as strong? sure $$$$. Quality is their customer base... thats what people who buy their sleds expect. Its a purpose built sled... big trail and lake miles. Even supertrax said in those enviorments you won't want to get off the sled. Sorry but i have to laugh when i here all this light weight s#%$t at the begining of the season..... always at the begining. Then its, this bent, this is cracked thats broken. New models come out... they make a big deal about how light they are. Every year after that they get heavier to stop them from breaking. But the manuf know everybody remembers the big light weight campaign from the prev year. Those 800 motors are always breaking. Yamaha =refined you know who = testing testing 1, 2 boom!
I'm not usually so critical of other brands but when you put it all together the new apex is in a class by itself.

 

[spike337]

Pretty awesome Doo video, just feel that the Apex and that E-Tec XP are made for 2 different styles of riding.

 

[Riceburner]

Exactly.

I have no interest in a " Nervous and Darty" to quote Mr Lester beach ball sled with a motor that will not likely see 5,000 miles. I'm a Flatlander Trail Rider.

That being said a good friend of mine loves his XP 800 far more than my Apex even though he blew his 08 XP 800 up in 4500 miles and is not sure whether his 2010 will make 5,000.

Mind you he did buy my Supercharged RX 1 from me this fall because he knew no Ski Doo on the trail in our area could come close to touching it for the price.

He also got the same amount resale as I did for my 5 year old Apex GT for a 2 year old XP 800 with a new 0 mile crate motor. Ouch.

To each his own.

Oh yeah, and Like Turk I am not expecting my 2011 Apex to beat a 2011 E-Tech 800 in less than 1,000 feet, stock for stock.

 

[**sj**]

Exactly.

I have no interest in a " Nervous and Darty" to quote Mr Lester beach ball sled with a motor that will not likely see 5,000 miles. I'm a Flatlander Trail Rider.

That being said a good friend of mine loves his XP 800 far more than my Apex even though he blew his 08 XP 800 up in 4500 miles and is not sure whether his 2010 will make 5,000.

Mind you he did buy my Supercharged RX 1 from me this fall because he knew no Ski Doo on the trail in our area could come close to touching it for the price.

He also got the same amount resale as I did for my 5 year old Apex GT for a 2 year old XP 800 with a new 0 mile crate motor. Ouch.

To each his own.

Oh yeah, and Like Turk I am not expecting my 2011 Apex to beat a 2011 E-Tech 800 in less than 1,000 feet, stock for stock.

I bleed blue ...but nervous and darty wouldnt be how Id decribe the new doo..I believe lester said of old as it was some of the previous doo's...but lets call a spade a spade..more yams with handling issues and darting than doo by a longshot...

as to the miles...on the doo 800's of old...seems to me ...you boys to the north have more motor issues...and Ive been told its your fuel..we all know the yams are rock solid dependable motors...the rest of the sleds need work...in contrast....In MIchigan here...I keep running into 800 doo owners which have 7k miles on a stock untouched motor...and we all know they need a lot less tweaking on the periphial's....the apex with that kind of miles had a laundry list of needs and repairs (but yes never the motor)..and that list when thinking of it required more effort than a fresh set of pistons and some crank bearings..maybe

and as to resale value...again around here...it was unbelievable how high the xp X package sleds were going for...believe me ...I tried to buy a used on to play with and the money was wayyy higher than the apex's...

dont get me wrong...I still think the apex motor is the smoothest and sweetest groomed trail motor in the business...

again...watch the video..and try to picture ride like that on those trails with an apex..

 

[Riceburner]

I've spent as much time as I wanted on 2008 and 2010 XP 800's and Yes I would describe them the same as Lester did. [Nervous and Darty] on a groomed trail. Soaked up the bumps very well but bouncy and all over the trail. No thanks for ME.

My friend with the 08 XP 800 had to work on it every week to keep it on the trail. He likes doing that though and had fun doing it.

My Apex I rebuilt the Ohlin's once a put on a set of Deuce bars. That's it other than oil changes in 5 years and 10,000 +. That's how I like to snowmobile. Worry free. Ride not wrench.

Hey, I have been sledding since the 60's and owned my own sleds since 1975. I've owned all four brands at one time and will likely own another brand in the future. I loved my 94 STX 583 Doo. Put close to 10,000 on it and it never let me down. Maybe $500.00 total in repairs and maitenance in 5 years. The thing was a great trail sled. Reliable and on rails. The new 800 XP's are neither at the moment so I choose not to ride one.

Different areas, different things happen. Doo's outsell Yammie here 3 to 1. So obviously they are popular. Cat would be 3 rd and Polaris fourth in this neck of the woods.

In this area pretty much all the 08 800 XP's had driveshafts break, belt issues, clutch issues, antifreeze leaks etc etc. 2/3 of those blew up in under 6,000 miles it seemed. [Center crank bearing] I do not think that is a gas issue. Cats and Yammies and most Polaris were not blowing up. I dunno. No Ethanol here.

Anyhow, like I said. 2 different sleds, 2 different types of riders. To each there own. I am glad you like your sled. My buddy loves his XP.

And no I do not think a pre 2011 Apex will stand a chance against a 2011 800 e-Tech stock for stock in a drag race of less than 1,000 feet.

 

[Turk]

My doo buddies do trade off every year or 2 just so they can stay in warranty. They know they are riding ticking time bombs except fot the 1200,s which have had minimal issues .