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Questions for CR


Totally agree with with how numbers can be used by marketers.

The snowmobile market is new to me but coming from the ATV market, Can Am has it up in arms. Never before has HP numbers been so important since Can Am has jumped into the game and toting huge numbers. Now all american manufacturers are competing in that 70 HP range. Now everyone is freaking out cause there machine does not have the most power. There is a lot more to a machine then straight line power. I know I get smoked all the time in the mud pits by can ams. I then bow down gracefully and take the winners out the next day to my battle grounds. Lets just say we even the score in the real world. Would I like yamaha to come out with a more powerful grizzly, you bet. But for the mean time I drive it for the machine what it is. I can keep adding more power at my will.

I see the same happening with sleds. Skidoo claims big numbers in light weight, AC claims worlds fastest sleds, Poo claims big dyno numbers and great suspension. So why can I beat all of the big dogs in an all stock race to 90 mph? Why do my arms get stretched at all parts in the throttle vs only one specific point on a 2 stroke? Why can I drive through the bumps faster then the other machines that are so much lighter and have such great suspension? For a machine that suposedly corners like crap, why can I slide the track out around corners with both skis planted? Only thing I don't have an answer to is why my back hurts when I try to lift it? I guess lift with my legs, lol.

Any ways CR. I appreciate the diplomacy and understand the reasoning. People get focused on the things that do not matter and let this dictate the way they purchase.
 
Everyone is too concerned with the top end hp figure. Low and mid torque and a nice broad powerband is king. I've found this out so many times years ago when tuning cars. Most of the cars with more peak hp and not much bottom and midrange would loose in a drag race even when geared down. I think these new Apexes will be alot quicker and also be a few mph faster up top too. They will be good enough to run with or ahead of any stock sled out there. (':4STroke:')
 
fourload said:
Everyone is too concerned with the top end hp figure. Low and mid torque and a nice broad powerband is king. I've found this out so many times years ago when tuning cars. Most of the cars with more peak hp and not much bottom and midrange would loose in a drag race even when geared down. I think these new Apexes will be alot quicker and also be a few mph faster up top too. They will be good enough to run with or ahead of any stock sled out there. (':4STroke:')
Click to expand...

Good point, how long can you actually hold it wide open for on a trail anyways? If you are already going 40-50 mph and have enough room to pin it for 5-6 seconds you are probably fast approaching 90-100.

30-60 mph partial full throttle acceleration out of corners is the most important. I can see the wisdom of what Yammie was aiming for.
 
Yamaha Sled Talk Blog said:
I think your point is one of the main reasons YMC has decided not to publish HP. You will make a purchase decision based on a published HP number in a brochure!!
Here's a hypothetical, manufacturer A publishes a number based on a heat soaked engine after several full dyno runs and comes up with lets say a 100hp. Manufacturer B takes a similar model (different brand) and gets a bigger number with a cold engine say 101 but publishes a 102, now brand A is junk. Enter the aftemarket guy with a DynoOmite and a fire extinguisher, he takes brand C and publishes 105 now A and B are junk. It's just like the dry weight / wet weight / helium in the tires weight... if we start to look good the other guys numbers will get embellished and who can really prove them wrong?
I believe our engineers are tired of the smoke and mirrors. There is a secondary concern that it is risky if we publish a number and someone decides to attack us because theirs has less.
I wouldn't be surprised if we will have to stop rounding off displacement numbers next. 421 = 450 or in the case of one OE, 599cc = 500,

Sorry for the long response. The new Apex has more power (torque plus HP) but if that's your only need in a sled, you're best advised to keep what you have and buy a propane turbo and some nitrous to get you rolling but be forewarned, there will always be someone faster...BTW this is my own interpretation and opinion. cheers cr
Click to expand...

I kind of see what you are saying, but why not just keep underrating the avertised hp like what you have been doing with the Nytro and RS vector?
 
Chris,
Initially I don't always agree with what you post, but almost always after talking to my factory connected, Yamaha guru I come around to see your point of view. I just want to say that I appreciate that you read the forums and post when you can. I also enjoy reading your blog and hope that you can continue to interact with us!

As I recall, Ski-doo tried the a similar type of thing on Doo-talk years ago and quickly bowed out. I'm both impressed and happy that you've been able to keep it going! For the record, I'm pleased to see that Yamaha dropped even more models for 2011 and I would not mind an even more limited lineup for 2012. To me it is like the 1980's all over again and that is not at all a bad thing.

However, I don't like the prices and think they are completely out of line. I'll be curious to see what the other 3 OEM's do for 2011 but aren't we quickly approaching the point (or already passed it a few years ago?) where instead of focusing on volume we are now focused on price per unit? Seems like the number of sleds sold each winter keeps diminishing and while some of that could be due do to the weather, the economy, popularity of the sport, etc. You cannot believe the the crazy price increases are not part of it? How am I supposed to get my kids into the sport when the cheapest sled Yamaha makes is $8,300? And no, I'm not going to buy a $4,000, limited build, 26 year old design, Bravo long track as a starter sled for my kids. Why are things so out of wack in the sled market? You can still buy beginner, low cc, inexpensive dirt bikes and quads. Why are sleds different? The Phazer would be on my to buy list if the price hadn't increased 2 grand since '07. But also, it needs to come with a decent width, 15" wide track. Not everyone rides groomed trails exclusively.
 
Chris Have the exhaust donut durabiliy been improved? The 4 into 1 pipe,EXUP valve and pipe to muffler appear to be one piece (very expensive) ,would hate to have to buy that because one of the header pipe flanges broke because of worn exhaust donut gasket.
 
Any chance the Yamaha Corporate will allow you to run a 2010 against a 2011 Apex and post on Youtube?
A 1/2 mile run would be sufficient to show how the sleds motors are different.
 
watersuper said:
Any chance the Yamaha Corporate will allow you to run a 2010 against a 2011 Apex and post on Youtube?
A 1/2 mile run would be sufficient to show how the sleds motors are different.
Click to expand...
Good question!!!!
 
Yamaha Sled Talk Blog said:
I think your point is one of the main reasons YMC has decided not to publish HP. You will make a purchase decision based on a published HP number in a brochure!!
Click to expand...

An honest number was published with the Apex I think they claimed 8 hp or was it 9 over the RX. The RX dynoed at 142 and the Apex at 151. So 5% is 158. Close enough to 160 and what most seem to want and also a lot seem to be crying that they didn't get.

Will have to wait for the mags to dyno it to know for sure. If it has the 160 or so hp, it may have enough to haul my flabby arse to a decent top speed number. The rest of the sled such as power steering already has me interested. 5% more hp would make it a great sled.

Now Chris about that Venture with the Apex motor, power steering ect!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
That's what I've been saying all along fourload. Guys keep focusing on a HP number instead of how does the sled perform. All I know is my 150 HP Apex is a match for any of the other big sleds out there. I certainly wouldn't trade that for another sled that is 170+ HP turbo but can't beat my Apex. this new sled is really gonna fly!



fourload said:
Everyone is too concerned with the top end hp figure. Low and mid torque and a nice broad powerband is king. I've found this out so many times years ago when tuning cars. Most of the cars with more peak hp and not much bottom and midrange would loose in a drag race even when geared down. I think these new Apexes will be alot quicker and also be a few mph faster up top too. They will be good enough to run with or ahead of any stock sled out there. (':4STroke:')
Click to expand...
 
What does the new Apex steer like if the EPS fails?

I assume it can still be driven.
 
First of all I must say that you did a great job on the trail machines and the Apex needed the workover.

Second and the question is there any plans of building a new lets say 750 or 800 ccm snowmobile in a kind of playable chassis like the Phazer?

I have rode the Phazer MTX the first one with the whole in the tunnel and I must say that machine is fun but a little underpowered. I also rode the Nytro XTX, Nytro MTX and a Warrior. My definitive favorite is the Phazer therefor I wonder if the subject even has been up there!
 
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