yamadoo
Yamadoo is a snowmobile ' aholic'.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 3,645
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 15 Viper STX DX red/white- GPS and KING AIR suspension 4kmiles
13 Apex XTX 45 anniversary RED/WHITE/BLACK 3K miles
10 Vector LTX Blue 9kmiles
11 Venture GT 4k miles
86 SnoScoot(2) for grand kids
I am wondering how you guys like to set up your sleds. My suspicion is that many - like I used to do - confuse fun with fast. 
See if you can relate. I had two xtc's one with Bender transfer rods and one with out. We all were sure the sled that rocked back and picked up the skiis was so much faster than the one that stayed realtively flat. THen head to head drag race more transfer was out of the whole faster but on the trail the flat sled railed and could walk the higher transfer sled. I am not talking excessive wheelies just fun lift.
In the end I set the transfer down some but left some in just because "it is fun to feel the wt shift and ski lift out of the corners" even though I know I would really be faster if I made it flatter yet. :shock:
I now try to find the balance where if I put my lead butt on the rear she lifts under power but if I hug the tank she still steers. Boy isn't that fun to think about.
How will you set up the rider forward sleds, lift or carve or a little of both. I guess when I finallly get mine I will have some lift for fun and more when I know I will lake race or radar run.
THank for sharing my dreaming time while we wait for it to snow.
Yamadoo
See if you can relate. I had two xtc's one with Bender transfer rods and one with out. We all were sure the sled that rocked back and picked up the skiis was so much faster than the one that stayed realtively flat. THen head to head drag race more transfer was out of the whole faster but on the trail the flat sled railed and could walk the higher transfer sled. I am not talking excessive wheelies just fun lift.
In the end I set the transfer down some but left some in just because "it is fun to feel the wt shift and ski lift out of the corners" even though I know I would really be faster if I made it flatter yet. :shock:
I now try to find the balance where if I put my lead butt on the rear she lifts under power but if I hug the tank she still steers. Boy isn't that fun to think about.
How will you set up the rider forward sleds, lift or carve or a little of both. I guess when I finallly get mine I will have some lift for fun and more when I know I will lake race or radar run.
THank for sharing my dreaming time while we wait for it to snow.
Yamadoo
LazyBastard
TY 4 Stroke God
Front of the lake, set for more transfer. Get to the end, pull over and make it flat.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
Like you I try to find the compromise where I can lift on a straight line by sitting back or standing and at the same time keep the skis planted if I pull up to the tank.
At first with the 05 RX-1 I was quite dissapointed because this appeared to be impossible with just the weight transfer setting (the manual only talked about using this to control ski lift). Since there is no front track shock spring to adjust the preload on, you can't use it to adjust the amount of acceleration before the skid rocks back, picking up the skis.
With the mono having a virtual pivot about halfway along the skis and no springs to help tweak the amount of acceleration when it would rock back I could only keep the skis on the ground out of corners (partially at that) with the transfer set all the way to minimum. Anything other than minimum and I was going straight every time I hit the throttlel even moderately. Talking with other owners this issue has a lot to do with rider weight (lots of guys really liked the ability to lift the skis in any condition though and were 100% happy with the stock setup). The heavier you are, the lower the acceleration needed to lift the skis. I'm about 210 lbs.
Another problem is if you set the weight transfer at minimum the ride suffers quite noticeably. Stutter bumps don't get soaked up at all like they do with the weight transfer increased.
Here's the key to getting what you want - shortening the limiter strap. Shortening the limiter strap allows the setup to require the suspension to compress in order to rock back (because the front of the skid can't extend beyond the limiter). The shorter you make it the harder the acceleration needed to get that rocking sensation and skis up in the air. In reality it is a balance between the spring pre-load, spring stiffness and limiter strap position that controls when the sled rocks back onto the weight transfer setting.
I found with the limiter 2 positions tighter than stock (middle hole is stock), the heavy duty rear spring, and the preload moderately high on the spring (fist click, c-clip on #2) produced an ideal setup for me. Now I was able to back off on the weight transfer limiter (which basically limits how high the skis will go when they lift). With this setup I am able to still lift the skis when I want (as long as the traction is there to produce the "threshold" acceleration needed to "rock back") as well as bring the monoshock ride back to where it should be (comfortable).
The one negative thing about doing this is if the traction is low enough that you can't get the required acceleration, the sled won't rock back at all and you can get creamed in a drag race (without studs I was often beaten anyway).
The other advantage to tightening the limiter is stability in high speed corners. As the sled tries to roll in the corner, the outer ski pushes the front of the sled up in the air a little. With the limiter tightened up , the front of the skid won't droop down as far and all of the weight is essentially distributed between the outer ski and the back of the track. It's a huge improvement to cornering stability (on the 05's).
All this to say it can be done with the mono-shock and once you get it right it's the best riding and handling suspension that at least I've ever experienced (I just wish mine stayed together).
At first with the 05 RX-1 I was quite dissapointed because this appeared to be impossible with just the weight transfer setting (the manual only talked about using this to control ski lift). Since there is no front track shock spring to adjust the preload on, you can't use it to adjust the amount of acceleration before the skid rocks back, picking up the skis.
With the mono having a virtual pivot about halfway along the skis and no springs to help tweak the amount of acceleration when it would rock back I could only keep the skis on the ground out of corners (partially at that) with the transfer set all the way to minimum. Anything other than minimum and I was going straight every time I hit the throttlel even moderately. Talking with other owners this issue has a lot to do with rider weight (lots of guys really liked the ability to lift the skis in any condition though and were 100% happy with the stock setup). The heavier you are, the lower the acceleration needed to lift the skis. I'm about 210 lbs.
Another problem is if you set the weight transfer at minimum the ride suffers quite noticeably. Stutter bumps don't get soaked up at all like they do with the weight transfer increased.
Here's the key to getting what you want - shortening the limiter strap. Shortening the limiter strap allows the setup to require the suspension to compress in order to rock back (because the front of the skid can't extend beyond the limiter). The shorter you make it the harder the acceleration needed to get that rocking sensation and skis up in the air. In reality it is a balance between the spring pre-load, spring stiffness and limiter strap position that controls when the sled rocks back onto the weight transfer setting.
I found with the limiter 2 positions tighter than stock (middle hole is stock), the heavy duty rear spring, and the preload moderately high on the spring (fist click, c-clip on #2) produced an ideal setup for me. Now I was able to back off on the weight transfer limiter (which basically limits how high the skis will go when they lift). With this setup I am able to still lift the skis when I want (as long as the traction is there to produce the "threshold" acceleration needed to "rock back") as well as bring the monoshock ride back to where it should be (comfortable).
The one negative thing about doing this is if the traction is low enough that you can't get the required acceleration, the sled won't rock back at all and you can get creamed in a drag race (without studs I was often beaten anyway).
The other advantage to tightening the limiter is stability in high speed corners. As the sled tries to roll in the corner, the outer ski pushes the front of the sled up in the air a little. With the limiter tightened up , the front of the skid won't droop down as far and all of the weight is essentially distributed between the outer ski and the back of the track. It's a huge improvement to cornering stability (on the 05's).
All this to say it can be done with the mono-shock and once you get it right it's the best riding and handling suspension that at least I've ever experienced (I just wish mine stayed together).
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
Wise words and great topic.
go to any advanced motorcycle training or driving school and they will spend a lot of time talking about weight transfer and how ot use it to your advantage
go to any advanced motorcycle training or driving school and they will spend a lot of time talking about weight transfer and how ot use it to your advantage
SledFreak
TY 4 Stroke God
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Good post, but that may really only apply to the 05's, since the balance of the sled has changed signicantly with the driver being moved forward 6 inches. For one, I don't believe you will have to pull the limter that tight, maybe one at tops. The weight is distributed differently now, so that old setup probably will not work.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
The specific setup applies to the 05's (and even then it's not what everyone wants), but the general concept on how to achieve that balance would still apply. The fact that you can tune the acceleration rate required to lift the skis with the mono is what I was really trying to explain.
Even on my 05 I rode a fair bit of the season with the limiter only 1 hole tighter. In looser snow conditions I found this worked better (but 2 tighter was the best all around trail compromise for me). The stock setup on the 06 will definitely be different, possibly ideal for most riders.
With the setup I had at the end of the season (my earlier post), not only could I accelerate around corners, but I could even roll the throttle wide open and still rail around corners. With me tucked up against the tank (actually a little forward of that, hanging way out the side of the sled) if I punched the throttle wide open often it would spin the track and kick the back end out (more like riding an older, lower, "corner on rails" sled).
Even with that much resistance to lifting the skis, if I stood up or sat back as far as I could and had a good traction surface below me I could easily lift the skis from a stop. If the traction was poor it would just spin like mad though (unless the back of the track could dig down enough to let the skis lift).
One thing for sure is my setup is far from the ideal lake racing setup. On a straight line run with the stock setup the skis wouldn't touch down until 60+ mph (if that) and acceleration was very good (very little ski drag). With this setup the skis would come back down probably around 20 mph or less (much more ski drag from there on plus the launch wasn't as good).
Even on my 05 I rode a fair bit of the season with the limiter only 1 hole tighter. In looser snow conditions I found this worked better (but 2 tighter was the best all around trail compromise for me). The stock setup on the 06 will definitely be different, possibly ideal for most riders.
With the setup I had at the end of the season (my earlier post), not only could I accelerate around corners, but I could even roll the throttle wide open and still rail around corners. With me tucked up against the tank (actually a little forward of that, hanging way out the side of the sled) if I punched the throttle wide open often it would spin the track and kick the back end out (more like riding an older, lower, "corner on rails" sled).
Even with that much resistance to lifting the skis, if I stood up or sat back as far as I could and had a good traction surface below me I could easily lift the skis from a stop. If the traction was poor it would just spin like mad though (unless the back of the track could dig down enough to let the skis lift).
One thing for sure is my setup is far from the ideal lake racing setup. On a straight line run with the stock setup the skis wouldn't touch down until 60+ mph (if that) and acceleration was very good (very little ski drag). With this setup the skis would come back down probably around 20 mph or less (much more ski drag from there on plus the launch wasn't as good).
