Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
After sampling the wide tracked sleds from each brand, I remain with great respect for the pulling power and sweet, sweet engine and powertrain package that is delivered with the VK Pro.
However, as is outlined in this forum, its deep snow performance is ho-hum, it has some weird handling traits and it's just too heavy.
Where does Yamaha go from here? Well, it took them somehwere around 15yrs to replace the original VK540/II/III, so we have until about 2025 to help guide them towards a replacement or stablemate (!).
I see the 80FI engine from the Phazer/Venture series as the next WT power plant. The Genesis 120 is probably the best engine on the market right now for reliability, but Yamaha's next Utility sled needs to get the weight down everywhere, especially in the nose.
As it stands right now, the next WT should be based on the Venture Multi Purpose; snub-nose Venture look, big windshield, minimal gauge pod, 20"x156" track, torsion spring rear end (like the Venture's) with rear flip up section, removable rear seat to yield a gargantuan rear storage area like the Ski-doo Expeditions/Skandics and underseat storage.
Right now in the Utility market, Ski-doo is dominating with their selection and they are doing it with a V-800 engine that has a questionable reliability record and only 65hp! The 600HO SDI helps, but the Genesis 120 beats the crap out of that already. Polaris also has a surprisingly good IQ WT that uses the FS80 twin cylinder 4-stroke engine putting out 80hp and requiring a large counterbalancer to keep smooth. Yamaha already has an 80hp mill that will be lighter than the FS80, ready to go.
I think that with minimal investment, the Venture Multi-Purpose could be widened to 20" (or even 24"!) and would be an excellent sled for the Utility market. Give it low range and I think it could even replace the VK Pro.
Is anybody listening?
However, as is outlined in this forum, its deep snow performance is ho-hum, it has some weird handling traits and it's just too heavy.
Where does Yamaha go from here? Well, it took them somehwere around 15yrs to replace the original VK540/II/III, so we have until about 2025 to help guide them towards a replacement or stablemate (!).
I see the 80FI engine from the Phazer/Venture series as the next WT power plant. The Genesis 120 is probably the best engine on the market right now for reliability, but Yamaha's next Utility sled needs to get the weight down everywhere, especially in the nose.
As it stands right now, the next WT should be based on the Venture Multi Purpose; snub-nose Venture look, big windshield, minimal gauge pod, 20"x156" track, torsion spring rear end (like the Venture's) with rear flip up section, removable rear seat to yield a gargantuan rear storage area like the Ski-doo Expeditions/Skandics and underseat storage.
Right now in the Utility market, Ski-doo is dominating with their selection and they are doing it with a V-800 engine that has a questionable reliability record and only 65hp! The 600HO SDI helps, but the Genesis 120 beats the crap out of that already. Polaris also has a surprisingly good IQ WT that uses the FS80 twin cylinder 4-stroke engine putting out 80hp and requiring a large counterbalancer to keep smooth. Yamaha already has an 80hp mill that will be lighter than the FS80, ready to go.
I think that with minimal investment, the Venture Multi-Purpose could be widened to 20" (or even 24"!) and would be an excellent sled for the Utility market. Give it low range and I think it could even replace the VK Pro.
Is anybody listening?
greg sellentin
Veteran
I've been using the VK Pro for one year now to groom sled dog trails in Alaska. I also have a SWT 500F. For my use, and I believe most utility situations, a 24" track would make this the nirvana (should that be capitalized?) of Utility sleds. I guess Yammie has to still hedge their market a bit towards the folks who are using it for multi purpose stuff like touring, etc. I wonder how much of the "ride quality" another 4" on the track would make. My buddy has the SWT V800, and the traction is amazing. he does complain about a weird vibration at a certain rpm when pulling a drag. Does the V800 have a counterbalancer?
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
I have a SWT V800, no crazy vibes unless idling and that engine doesn't use a counterbalancer shaft. The thing to remember here is that you can tune a lot vibes out just by playing with the angle of the V, with a parallel twin you don't have that option, but you gain a great deal in the compactness of the engine.
+1 for a 24" tracked 80FI sled. Just imagine...!
+1 for a 24" tracked 80FI sled. Just imagine...!
One of the roumors over here is there will be a new lighter version of the RS Viking with a smaller engine to replace the old VK540III. I hope it isn't the Phazer engine though. I would rather see a low-reving new engine without the gear-reduction... 
air19
Pro
I'll add two more wish list requests:
1. Super cooling - something like I have finally on my setup with two radiators and two fans. You can never have enough cooling on a utility sled that is pulling or grooming all day long.
2. Better transmission/shifting - I don't know why their transmission shifts as hard as it does. Much harder than my old SWT, but it's a big problem. And it would be nice to have a true nuetral position also.
1. Super cooling - something like I have finally on my setup with two radiators and two fans. You can never have enough cooling on a utility sled that is pulling or grooming all day long.
2. Better transmission/shifting - I don't know why their transmission shifts as hard as it does. Much harder than my old SWT, but it's a big problem. And it would be nice to have a true nuetral position also.
greg sellentin
Veteran
Air19, did you get the upgraded kit for the tranny? My dealer here put one in for free, and it shifts a lot better, although not perfect. I have an '07.
air19
Pro
greg sellentin said:
I have on '08, and I thought all 08s had the upgraded tranny. Now maybe I should push my dealer to see if any 08s got through without the upgrade, including mine.
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Well, if the 80FI is not the engine of choice, what would be your suggestions? Do we want a V like Ski-doo uses? I think a parallel twin brings with it some serious packaging advantages but it is true that the high-rpm, gear-reduced 80FI may not be perfect for the Utility segment.
I would have to try it first though, maybe I need some more seat time on a Venture MP...
I would have to try it first though, maybe I need some more seat time on a Venture MP...
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
air19 said:
Well, not much action on this topic so I guess I'll entertain myself...
(1) Agreed. Ski-doo has proven that a rad+fan can replace tunnel coolers without a problem. It eliminates the overheating possibility, so why not, right?
(2) Yup. No room for clunky shifters anymore, Yamaha needs to come up with something a little more positive shifting. BRP's shift-on-the-fly is noce, but not essential, it just has to shift when you want it to, even just while stopped.
air19
Pro
Well if you allow me to expand the topic slightly beyond just talking about the engine then I have lots more feedback.
But I'll start with the engine. I would definitely like EFI. I was grooming a couple days ago and went through some really bumpy areas, got stuck, couldn't easily get into reverse so had to turn the engine on and off a few times, really rocked it side to side. Eventually got out of there, but the engine stalled out right afterwards. Probably flooded the carb or something, but I bet EFI would have prevented this. I came back an hour later and it ran fine after that.
Now regarding weight, I'm probably the odd user because 99% of my use is on my own groomed trails. I really like the heavy front end. Once a month it hurts me when we get a big dump (12 inches of snow), and once a year it really hurts me when we get an even bigger dump (30 inches of snow). I have even been known to strap on 50 lbs of extra weights on the front nose to give my skis even more steering pressure. Now if there was a way I could change the suspension more easily based on conditions, then I would be happy with a lighter machine.
So besides the cooling and transmission I've already mentioned as my top requests, the next big wish I would like for a utility sled would be an adjustable suspension to change the balance from traction to steering based on the conditions. I'm talking about something I could change with a lever on the fly, not a bunch of tools and shop time.
Then a couple of details, but they would be very helpful - how about a temperature gauge so I can really monitor the cooling system. Right now I run with both of my radiator fans on all the time. Maybe it's overkill. I'd love a factory installed temp gauge to help me out. And how about some improvements to the 12V system. A convenient outlet in the rear for actuators or lights would be very helpful. By the way one downside of my second radiator is it's hardwired to the 12V system and the dealer had to disable the front 12V plug as part of the Yamaha recommended installation procedure. They need to upgrade the 12V for more uses.
The bummer about this utility sled segment is how slow things change. I compare this to the ATV world where big new features come in like power steering and the race is on for every vendor to respond. I'm seeing more and more groomer friends leaving utility sleds behind and switching over to tracked ATVs. That's where the innovation is happening and they are getting better at getting it right when it first comes out. I've heard how first year sled owners have had too many bad things happen and the vendor support has left them stranded. So the competition is not just from other utility sleds but now it's also coming from tracked ATVs. For some users they will never be an alternative, but for others they are real.
But I'll start with the engine. I would definitely like EFI. I was grooming a couple days ago and went through some really bumpy areas, got stuck, couldn't easily get into reverse so had to turn the engine on and off a few times, really rocked it side to side. Eventually got out of there, but the engine stalled out right afterwards. Probably flooded the carb or something, but I bet EFI would have prevented this. I came back an hour later and it ran fine after that.
Now regarding weight, I'm probably the odd user because 99% of my use is on my own groomed trails. I really like the heavy front end. Once a month it hurts me when we get a big dump (12 inches of snow), and once a year it really hurts me when we get an even bigger dump (30 inches of snow). I have even been known to strap on 50 lbs of extra weights on the front nose to give my skis even more steering pressure. Now if there was a way I could change the suspension more easily based on conditions, then I would be happy with a lighter machine.
So besides the cooling and transmission I've already mentioned as my top requests, the next big wish I would like for a utility sled would be an adjustable suspension to change the balance from traction to steering based on the conditions. I'm talking about something I could change with a lever on the fly, not a bunch of tools and shop time.
Then a couple of details, but they would be very helpful - how about a temperature gauge so I can really monitor the cooling system. Right now I run with both of my radiator fans on all the time. Maybe it's overkill. I'd love a factory installed temp gauge to help me out. And how about some improvements to the 12V system. A convenient outlet in the rear for actuators or lights would be very helpful. By the way one downside of my second radiator is it's hardwired to the 12V system and the dealer had to disable the front 12V plug as part of the Yamaha recommended installation procedure. They need to upgrade the 12V for more uses.
The bummer about this utility sled segment is how slow things change. I compare this to the ATV world where big new features come in like power steering and the race is on for every vendor to respond. I'm seeing more and more groomer friends leaving utility sleds behind and switching over to tracked ATVs. That's where the innovation is happening and they are getting better at getting it right when it first comes out. I've heard how first year sled owners have had too many bad things happen and the vendor support has left them stranded. So the competition is not just from other utility sleds but now it's also coming from tracked ATVs. For some users they will never be an alternative, but for others they are real.
7 skulls
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
On the topic of utility machines, I would like to see a modern version of our venerable enticer II. Make it fourstroke with the current 700 grizzly single and a heavy duty cooling system as well as dual range. Go back to the reverse shifter style of the enticer, always works everytime: reach over, push down, pull back... simple.
Give it a wrap around bumper for stump bashing and a large rack for chainsaws, etc. I like the idea of a quick adjust susp. from traction/transfer to steering. Keep the front suspension high with a full skid plate stock and all vitals well protected. An articulated track would be excellent as well as a enough seat room to fit two full size adults. Also make it reasonably light, 500lbs to 600lbs full wet.
For 14 winters now, our enticer II has towed its weight in black spruce (as well as its weight in passengers) through chainsaw-slashed paths with far less maintenance/operating costs than our current 4-stroke sport sleds.
A new enticer with the pulling power of an atv and the hard working traits of the original would suit me.
Give it a wrap around bumper for stump bashing and a large rack for chainsaws, etc. I like the idea of a quick adjust susp. from traction/transfer to steering. Keep the front suspension high with a full skid plate stock and all vitals well protected. An articulated track would be excellent as well as a enough seat room to fit two full size adults. Also make it reasonably light, 500lbs to 600lbs full wet.
For 14 winters now, our enticer II has towed its weight in black spruce (as well as its weight in passengers) through chainsaw-slashed paths with far less maintenance/operating costs than our current 4-stroke sport sleds.
A new enticer with the pulling power of an atv and the hard working traits of the original would suit me.
Attachments
I agree with 7skulls! That would be a great setup! Now go build it! LOL
I would really like to see an ATV transmission in a sled, since they seem to last the belts for a long time, and one could get some real engine-brake! I like the way the belt is allways engaged on the ATV's, and uses a centrifugal clutch to engage the the main clutch again. I don't really know how the Yamaha-ATV's tranny is built up though, only somewhat familiar with the CanAm's...
I wonder how such a setup would work on a sled??? Hmmmm... Maybe it would prove too heavy in comparison to the normal clutch-setup of a sled?
I would really like to see an ATV transmission in a sled, since they seem to last the belts for a long time, and one could get some real engine-brake! I like the way the belt is allways engaged on the ATV's, and uses a centrifugal clutch to engage the the main clutch again. I don't really know how the Yamaha-ATV's tranny is built up though, only somewhat familiar with the CanAm's...
I wonder how such a setup would work on a sled??? Hmmmm... Maybe it would prove too heavy in comparison to the normal clutch-setup of a sled?
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
RSV said:
The CVT's are almost identical between the two vehicles.
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
7 skulls said:
Lots of good points here, the Enticer II was an epic snowmobile that bridged the gap between the Bravo LT owners and the VK owners for a long time.
I would argue that the Venture MP is a reasonable replacement for the Enticer, 80hp, solenoid reverse, fairly light weight, two up seat, brush guard, etc.
I still think this engine could make its way to a lightweight WT sled without costing Yamaha too much. Keep it simple, minimalistic and light weight, use pieces from the Venture MP, maybe go back to the Venture/Enticer II shifter style and ensure that a flip-up makes it to the rear portion of the rear skid.
Ski-doo has Expeditions, Skandic SWT's, WT's SUV's and Tundras with this feature, why can't Yamaha follow-up with other models?
Jack_Shaft said:
Nope, quite different.... look them up on the fiche, the ATV's use a neat design.
