The Stir the Pot Question of the Day!!

[WillowAce]

I am hearing a lot about weight. Snowmobile writers harp on the weight of Yamaha snowmobiles. Other brand owners boast of power to weight ration advantage. Heck, even the Yamaha true blue riders talk about it. So my question is this; comparing wet weight to wet weight, not bone dry and even sucked the condensation out of it weight, what is the actual weight difference between say a Ski-Doo Renegade 600 and a Viper LTX? Does it really make a difference?

 

[Yamajon1]

Not to me. I ride it, I don't carry it. To me it's not about the total weight but how the machine carries it. I know my Viper weighs more then most of the other sleds I ride with but i feel it carries it well and by that I mean it doesn't feel heavy when driving it. I as a trail rider don't think weight is a big issue but I'm sure the back country crowd has a whole different opinion and justifiably so. I need to be more conscious of my own weight then my sleds. And they all weigh to much when there stuck

 

[WillowAce]

I need to be more conscious of my own weight

Vipers seem to run consistently faster with heavier riders.

 

[WillowAce]

the back country crowd has a whole different opinion and justifiably so

I'm not convinced that it is the weight backcountry riders don't like. Is it possible the 2 stroke being a quicker revving engine puts power to the track a little faster helping flotation when needed?

 

[Sevey]

I think the guys clowning around off trail are way more in tune with the weight of their machine. On a trail, I may argue 50 lbs one way or another will not affect things. In fact a bit of weight may keep things planted better.

As for the comment about 2 stroke being quicker revving, and getting power to the track - not sure I would rely on that info. These 4's have so much power down low it's insane. 2's don't create power until higher rpm's. By then the 4 is long gone.
Ms

 

[cannondale27]

I'm not convinced that it is the weight backcountry riders don't like. Is it possible the 2 stroke being a quicker revving engine puts power to the track a little faster helping flotation when needed?

Its not all about the weight its how it affects the sled. Viper is awesome front to back but side to side the weight is noticeable at least for lighter riders. So a Sidehill or big whoops that arent in line. Definitly need alot more input to control the 4st than 2st in those situations for me at least.

 

[ccmviper]

I ride a Viper MTX.I've never ridden a two stroke mountain sled so I can't compare the two off trail but I can tell you my Viper will go anywhere a two stroke will,I'm always the lead sled in my group,I don't get stuck very often,when I do it's the same process getting it out as the 2 strokes.I can ride for hours off trail without tiring.Its a very capable.You dont have to muscle this sled,it' very easy to ride.I was going to switch brands this year because Yamaha didn't offer a NA mountain sled this year or next year but knowing what I know and doing alot of reading on the other brands I'm sticking with my 16 Viper until Yamaha gives me something to replace it with.I don't find it heavy and I don't see any weight advantage off trail for the 2 strokes in my group.Im not saying there isn't one but I think it's overblown and more dependant on the rider.

 

[KnappAttack]

Lighter is better, don't let anyone kid ya. That said, a bit of extra weight is not always a bad thing if you like it planted better on the trail. I really wished my Winder was a light as my old 1200 DOOs and had the same size fuel tank too.

 

[74Nitro]

So, I wonder what would be the difference in weight between the Doo turbo and a Winder. I don't want to hear what the manufacturers claim, I'd like to see someone put them on a scale, one after the other. Empty on fuel too, I don't want to compare fuel tank size.

 

[nbsledder]

I think the guys clowning around off trail are way more in tune with the weight of their machine. On a trail, I may argue 50 lbs one way or another will not affect things. In fact a bit of weight may keep things planted better.

As for the comment about 2 stroke being quicker revving, and getting power to the track - not sure I would rely on that info. These 4's have so much power down low it's insane. 2's don't create power until higher rpm's. By then the 4 is long gone.
Ms

 

[nbsledder]

I think the guys clowning around off trail are way more in tune with the weight of their machine. On a trail, I may argue 50 lbs one way or another will not affect things. In fact a bit of weight may keep things planted better.

As for the comment about 2 stroke being quicker revving, and getting power to the track - not sure I would rely on that info. These 4's have so much power down low it's insane. 2's don't create power until higher rpm's. By then the 4 is long gone.
Ms

I agree with you 100%

 

[earthling]

A theoretical 150HP : 700lb sled is running around 4.6 lbs per horsepower. That really is a pretty high performance ratio. A Ferrari 488 GTB is about the same. Weight is a sometimes physical thing, sometimes mechanical, and always a controversial topic.

Flick-ability ; to me, when someone says something is flick-able (or however you want to describe it) they are talking primarily about their ability to influence the attitude away from its current position towards something different. IOW, its about your physical ability to change the direction, lean, or acceleration (pitch, yaw, roll, acceleration) of the snowmobile. Leaving traction out of it for a second, it becomes mostly about the position of the three biggest factors in weight distribution, the track, engine, and the double big mac (speaking of myself) driving the thing. Mass is what you are trying to overcome (ignoring gyroscopic effect), and the location, distribution, and leverage that is available are the tools you have to deal with.

Example. A 100 pound block of iron only feels like such if you have no leverage over it.

Then you have to factor in where that mass is located and its momentum.

Example, A 100 pound block of iron is easier to spin than it is to swing at the end of a rope.

The rider forward position, and the relocation of the engine so that it is more 'under' the rider solves two problems. It helps with weight transfer and helps with control of momentum, both of which in turn makes it 'feel' lighter when in fact the beginning mass may be very similar (or close enough).

There is no perfect answer as it comes down to rider style, application (Trail vs mountain, etc), and ability. Ability can overcome a lot which may be why we see a lot of people blow off any concern over weight, as they are simply able to handle it better. Similarly a trail sled will benefit from a lower center of gravity and higher weight, depending on rider style, terrain, etc.. Regardless of ability however, chassis design, the location of the weight, can and will contribute to its 'feel' and in many cases directly translate into improved performance. This means a smaller engine that can be more compactly packed into a central mass (together with the double big mac pilot) that balances well with the rest of the chassis and can act as more of a pivot point, providing greater maneuverability and a lighter feel. I personally don't care what it weighs as long as it doesn't feel like it weighs a ton, *as long as it doesn't sacrifice performance (acceleration)*. After all, that rush of speed is what keeps everything interesting.. (for me).

 

[CooperT]

The 850 renegade X I had weighs 42lbs less than a viper ltx dx...can’t even notice the difference.

 

[yamadoo]

I have said it often, so bear with me again,I tell the ‘weight guys ‘ riding TRAIL with me, “do you realize your sled weighs more than mine when you’re full of fuel and I am near empty,”.
How can you stand it?
Can you even notice the fuel weight when your full?

As our late TYer Turk used to say, where I am from we ride our sleds on the trail we don’t carry them.
I am sure in the deep and mountains it’s a bigger issue.

My 2 cents
Yamadoo

 

[SumpBuster]

My apex steers lighter than my sw. Both with curve skis. Even though my doc didn't use the exact term 'fatass', sitting over the upper rear idler wheels (apex) when not on the tank for more 'spirited' riding takes a lot off the front, but sitting with my knees on the plastic (sw), puts much of that over the skis. Nice thing is, I can fine tune front handling by sliding back or forward a little. But what I feel works may not for the next guy. A light front end, 'flickable' just isn't in the cards for me, although they are easier on the arms in slow going. At speed, I want some dependable grip up front. Heavy, light (er) sleds....whatever...I dont weigh them.
But yeah, best time to play is 30 miles back to the truck, or home, and 3 gallons left, and they had the triple cheeseburgers....lol!